You're listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom breeze are here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.
Speaker 2: (00:14)
Oli, quick question for you mate I think one of the, one of the kinds of things I see a lot, especially in my agency promoting a lot of clients, et cetera, is, there's a situation where a client might build a new funnel and it might be a brand new funnel for a brand new business or it might be an existing business and it's a new product, for example. And the question that's often asked, or the question that I often ask my clients really more than anything else is, how well does this product currently sells? But typically they may not know that just yet and they're looking to actually promote it for the first time. So if we were to look at promoting a new product, or looking to, if you're looking to introduce new products into the marketplace, how would you know, or what kind of indicators would you take? There's no that this is going to be a seller or not. Like is there anything that you do to be like, I know this is going to do well in this marketplace, or is it just a case of just hoping or you would just say, just test it, but there must be a better way of doing it.
Speaker 3: (01:16)
That's like the de facto thing, isn't it? Like everybody just as well find out, you know, just test it, you know, and, let's hope for, hopefully we give a better kind of answer to this. Then he's like, it's normally me that has the test, then it's expensive. Right.
Speaker 3: (01:32)
[inaudible] yeah yeah, for me, we often build funnels for people that, they've never built that funnel before. And so it's difficult to benchmark stuff and, you know, understand whether or not actually this really works or not. So, yeah. So really for me, I think it's kind of partly part of it's down to market reconnaissance as such, from the very beginning, kind of really, doing some critical thinking about, the, the, the, the, the audience and the market that you ultimately are trying to engage with and, you know, that a lot, the likelihood that they're actually going to convert to, to not just be a lead but actually become a customer and just because you can build a list quite quickly just because you can, you know, generate that fairly of that list fairly affordably. It doesn't necessarily mean that that product that you're, you're ultimately going to try and sell is going to be profitable for you, in the long run.
Speaker 3: (02:37)
So it's really looking at, a number of different things. But I think that most people are go and build it and they have this, they have this notion that if I go and build the best membership site or I go and, even, you know, going, you know, create this product or this course or whatever it may be, that because of how good it is, I have a good, they think it is that they think that'll automatically carry that product towards some sort of success. And that really isn't the case at all and, and quite often it's really about dialing into the market it's also dialing into existing customers and understanding what they are, what they think about that. If you're introducing it into a, you know, your existing business, and really, really getting a good understanding for that and to then go forward and test quite cheaply to understand whether or not there are people out there that are put in the hands of the, not necessarily just getting on a list but also potentially buying something from you.
Speaker 2: (03:47)
So, so how would you, what point I should really say is like what point do you decide this is a good idea to keep on promoting this product or not? Like do you say, because as you was talking I was making some notes as well. I was thinking like, right, okay. Well there's, there's one thing which is like the quality of the traffic that you're sending them to begin with because if you're sending backwards, the traffic is not a fair test. You don't know if it says you've been product or not. So I suppose that's a consideration. The next thing is like you might have a really good traffic who are actively ready to buy, but you're just giving them the wrong thing. So I suppose that's the, another consideration. But, how would you go about testing it? Because, say for example is a high priced ticket item and you're willing to spend let's say $1,000 to acquire a new customer because you know it's going to worth 50,000 to you or something that can get very expensive very quickly and you still don't have enough data to really decide whether there's a good product or not and you have to give it more time.
Speaker 2: (04:39)
For example would you put something else in place like a fail safe to be like, okay, well let's, let's get a smaller price products out that market first, see if they bite. And if they do, then maybe we're in the right sort of ballpark of the right sort of customer and the right sort of products. But how, how would you go about if it was a hyper high priced ticket item? I get that if it's, if it's a lower price, you can have like you can test it with some leads straight away and you can and you can see. But, how do you know if you, well, and this is mine, not have an answer to this and this is why we're discussing it I suppose, but would you put something in a place like that? Would you put something in place which is a smaller priced item or would you, would you just continue testing? What would your strategy be?
Speaker 3: (05:17)
Yeah, so for a long time now and, and, and a lot of people have the term tripwire and I'm not the kind of getting away from the fact that that's a very, it's a, it's a tactic that can be used and employed very effectively to separate buyers from non-buyers and trying to move people across the free line of just consuming free stuff but actually the, the term tripwire really is what I term to be a self liquidating offer. Now self liquidating offers have been around for, Oh God, I was reading a that we weren't doing some modeling garden. That was from the 1930s. I [inaudible]. Okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm, you know, doing postage and packaging type offers or you know, you know, kind of, anything that's going to liquidate the cost of actually getting people to the action that you want them to take, is a good thing because then you've got an infinite budget that you can obviously put towards more traffic, or gaining more understanding within that marketplace whether or not it's something that you want to move forward with.
Speaker 3: (06:31)
So when do you stop and, and how does that work from a high ticket perspective and so on, so forth. I guess rarely, having your self liquidating offer and then having that broken out from maybe the core product in some way, is a good thing. And I, I would take the end product that you're trying to sell, break a bit of that off, break a chunk of it off and offer that as some kind of self liquidating offer and trying to get people to move from, you know, opting in or whatever it may be that they are doing and getting on your list to that self liquidating offer as soon as possible. You'll see people do that pretty much immediately after they opt in and you've got to sell that quite as hard as you've got to sell the em thing as well.
Speaker 3: (07:18)
So I was looking at a lot of people can do metrics and measurements and kind of try to get quite scientific quite quickly. I actually also look at that time between those milestones. So how soon are they converting from, that them becoming a lead to becoming that initial purchase that they make? What's the time period? Because in some cases, as you just mentioned, quite that you South that you know, you can be in this situation where you, you might not have that time, right. And so if you send me something for $50,000 pounds, whatever it may be, the fact is, is that you've got to be able to bankroll at time before people start to convert. So it's really, it's really for, for me, it's the attribution as well of where they initially came through from, to understand if they converted. So, that start to get a bit more complicated obviously.
Speaker 3: (08:15)
And obviously the kind of what we're trying to answer here, we're kind of dealing with a big hairy topic of how do you know the product's gonna work or not. And what I would say, this probably comes back to a traffic thing actually, is kind of what channels could you use right now if we were taking my self liquidating offer approach and taking a chunk out of that product and making it, making it real for somebody to buy pretty much the two things I would use is some kind of giveaway, some kind of lead magnet and that self liquidating offer of some, perhaps not start with those two things. What, what could I guess, what could we use from a traffic perspective that could drive people there that would be effective and give us some indication if there was that market there.
Speaker 2: (09:02)
Brilliant. Okay. So, so just to recap on that then. So like if you had a, a product that is of a significant investment to somebody and it's not easy to test it because it's not easy to say, well it's on a run like $5,000 worth of traffic and see if it works. Because if it doesn't work out, especially for a smaller business that hurts, it hurts a lot and it hurts me because I'd promote clients with my own spend and get getting recouped when we get leads or sales for clients. So I'm having a self liquidating offer in there. I never liked the word tripwire. I don't like the idea of tripping over your customers. It doesn't just doesn't feel right. So I like the fact that, yeah, self-liquidating off it sounds a lot better so you'd have something that complements the bigger purchase and, but it's a much smaller price point. And I suppose it's just, it does two things. One, it recoups the advertising spend or the marketing spend and also gives you a great indication as to whether that product is actually going to be any good in terms of selling that product. Cause if they like one thing and they like you, I suppose like you as a business or you as a brand, they are going to then potentially say Riker, we've taken the first step, there's a bit of commitment there and it's likely to carry on being consistent through the funnel.
Speaker 3: (10:10)
Yeah. And I just to add to that actually, a lot of the time when once you've actually, you know, they, some is actually got their credit card out, like giving me some money and they then consume that, that, that, that first initial purchase as you then may die land that big a product that you shouldn't have yet made really towards asking what that market want before you go and make it. So the old adage is, you know, kind of ask them what they want and then give it to them. Well that's the best way of doing that. Building a list at the same time, liquidating as much of the cost of that upfront as possible. So long as the lead to first purchase time is, is fairly, fairly good that those metrics and then start asking them, you know, what do you want rather than just going ahead to make some that you think that they need.
Speaker 2: (11:04)
How, how, like I'm always reminded whenever I, cause I love that approach of serving your audience and asking them what they want and then therefore creating what they do want. That makes a lot of sense I think that sometimes when you're bringing a brand new product into the marketplace, they would never have said that's what they want because they didn't know exist in the first place. A bit like if you'd asked Henry if Henry Ford had taken that approach, you would've had a better carriage and a better horse for example, and it would never build a car, for example. So this is like an argument to say that and I think, and I think a lot of people also think that their, their own products are going to be groundbreaking. I think a lot of people believe that and they get very kind of like rosy eyed and they think, Oh God, the world's going to love what I've got to promote here.
Speaker 2: (11:45)
And then the market will always decide. So there's always a big disconnect there so, if you are going to bring out something completely that no one's seen before, almost like a, like maybe not the tech new Tesla car because it's been that sort of movement already, but something along those lines, like a new renewable type of energy or something along those lines. Like, is that a case of just like doing very, very good brand awareness work to begin with and then thinking about the conversion quickly after that? Is there a consideration there or, and, and again, it's kind of like this is not the sort of thing where there's necessarily an answer. It's more a case of just a yeah, I think, I think from a branding perspective it depends on you know, your, your, your brand as a business in terms of, of what you, what tactics you might employ to be able to get that information and how you might go about doing that based on the budgets that you have who your trying to click hate. You know, for me as a business side of me, the only person, the only thing I'm really interested in is you know, kind of getting more customers and keeping them now from a, if I'm launching a new product, something like Tesla or something like that, then I've got shareholders, I've got investors, stakeholders in the business are going to go about things in a slightly different way than direct response, direct marketing. Now there is a, there's a way to actually marry up those two things.
Speaker 3: (13:08)
And some businesses, some bigger brands actually do that quite well but most small business owners don't have those budgets to go about those things in the same way. So, you know, for, for us from a small business perspective, it's really about getting a handle on quite quickly. Doing the market research is such a big, big part of, I'm really trying to get clear on whether or not this is something that we should be able to, continue with moving forward with regardless of how good we think the idea is. And there were some good indicators before we even do traffic before we even do, lead magnets and, and self-liquidating offers to tell us more. We've got good search tools. I mean there's some great software out there so we understand what people are actually intentionally looking for. And then also we're talking about, you know, market that, people might be interested in this product because they are interested in something else.
Speaker 3: (14:10)
So maybe that demographic or psychographic information might give us an indication for that pool of people. And that's where then through some of the traffic stuff that you do, you're able to quickly, easily in an affordably dial into that market that has some association to what you might be looking to sell and give them an offer, because you already know that so many people are looking for something cool. So many people are associated to this marketplace and that's exciting because that, that gives you a good idea for that, you know, for sure I suppose about finding that hungry audience to begin with is always key. Like if you know that they're hungry, then you know that you can them something, you know, I suppose that comes back to that what I said earlier about that the quality of the traffic, if they're actually interested in this topic already kind of bringing a new product into the market that no one's ever heard of before is going to be much more likely to be successful if there's already an existing audience that likes stuff similar to that already.
Speaker 3: (15:09)
I'm not existing audience could also be your existing customer base. So we recruit, right? A lot of businesses that have been businesses within businesses. So we've already got like a tribe or a herd of people that follow something that we do and kind of make sense for us to ask them, Hey, so if we going this direction, is that something that you would be interested in? And we call that like priming, priming the audience because I don't want to go and make a certified online course or a host the course or I mean that's just info, right? I mean, we could be talking about anything here. We could be talking about a new fitness program for somebody or you know, you know, writing a book, even, you know, I want to know, people that already spend money with me, kind of is this something that they would be interested in? I'm interested in buying. Right and how many other people's customers would be interested in buying that as well. So there's opportunities to, to, you know, partner and, and, and find that information out through some surveys and, be a bit more dynamic, either things. Then those things we've got at our disposal now more than we ever have had perhaps before. So I what's really interesting for me, I think, is that, as well as, the kind of like the, the, the mechanics of taking someone who is interested to become a customer and, and opening up their wallet and actually spending money with you, is the difference of where that traffic has come from to begin with the context of it, because I think that if you were to be, let's, let's just take advertising is, and that's what I do. I'm very comfortable with that. If we're to look at something like Facebook, you're kind of getting in front of an identity, you're saying, right, based on people that are interested in this type of topic and, or this demographic, or have classified themselves at this taught sort of person are only get in front of that sort of identity and, and promote my product to those people.
Speaker 2: (17:02)
That pushed my message on those people which is, which is where I think this question comes from really more than anything else is like, how do you know those people are going to be interested in your product just based on their demographics and their interests and their identities. Is, is there's going to have to be some good guesswork going on there whereas with a platform like YouTube, people are going there off their own motivation and they're go into YouTube to begin with looking for something, which is going to help them, find out something about what somebody wants to know about do or buy something. So you can tell what the videos that people are watching, what's most interesting to them. And you can kinda just see the title and the content of the video and the comments underneath, et cetera, the community's there and asking those questions already.
Speaker 2: (17:47)
And that's why I think YouTube is such an interesting platform to be advertising on because you can see what people are up to see what they want. And if they're in that kind of like in that moment in that kind of like moment in time where they're looking up an information video, you know what they're interested in, you know, they're watching the video all the way through about how to do this or how to do that. Or, can you give me a review on this product for example? And if everyone's doing that and there's loads and loads of views and that topic, you know, there's kind of like, that's almost like market research done. It's like, right. That's what people are looking up and spending their time doing that stuff and you know, their motivations behind it you're so much closer to the buying decision and it's so then your message, those people can be a lot more congruence and the, and it should mean that the products you create, it shouldn't be the case of like, here's my products. How do I promote it? It should be more like, here's the hungry audience needs, like one, here's a product that will fit that market. And I think that's what you were saying earlier, right?
Speaker 3: (18:44)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I always say it just reminds me of the lesson of sometimes you've got to do the hard work to make the selling easy. And I'm, you know, a lot of the time people are, underestimate, defy all of the, you know, the, the, I guess sometimes I, I look at that either an existing Mark or other people within their marketplace and just assume that they kind of landed where they are, quite quickly and quite easily when in actual fact, you know, there's, there's a lot that goes behind launching a new product and new business and new idea, a new concept even, than, than just kind of a bit of market research and a bit of kind of, just getting out there. You know, people, my favorite cry quote is a Gary Halbert quote, which is an emotion beats meditation.
Speaker 3: (19:46)
You know, the idea that god is good enough and you can, the quicker that you move forward in Twitter, you take action, the faster you take action, you know, naturally things will happen and they will because that's kind of cause and effect. But actually the truth is you'll also fail a lot doing that and you'll, you'll suffer from fatigue as well from not really being too considered in your approach, in researching anything, especially, you know, trying to launch a new product, a new division, whatever it is you're doing. So, you know, do the hard work and as you just said that from a YouTube perspective, some of that's just, you know, psychology. Some people aren't very good at asking the right questions and they don't really, really go deep enough to really understand the desires, the needs and the problems of those people and that is the hard work.
Speaker 3: (20:39)
Really, really getting that message to market match is tightly aligned as possible so that you can effectively and acquire customers, as you would want them to and as you've mentioned, that's, that's very relevant to intentional search is from a traffic perspective is very relevant. So display based searches, be it Facebook or, or YouTube from a video perspective. And it's also very relevant from a conversion perspective of how you talk, what language you use and actually that research goes looking at those comments, looking at what people are actually saying about those, those videos, or what comments they're making actually on Facebook because you can learn a lot by listening and not a lot of people listen.
Speaker 2: (21:32)
Yeah. All right. Okay. So let's put this into practice then. So like, let's try and think of a step by step if we can have some sort to say, right, okay. If we're going to bring a new market, a new product into the market, what steps we would take to begin with, I think if we're to look at the whole customer journey to begin with, I might say, right. Let's say for example, in some industries I think to begin with, what I would do is go to YouTube, start looking at videos about that particular topic that you think you might be able to create a product around that kind of industry and look at all the different videos, look at the comments, look at what people are talking about I know Twitter's good for it as well, like looking at Twitter search and looking up like that particular content and looking at what other people are talking about it's in the conversations and the other blogs, maybe other forums, et cetera once you've gathered that information, how would you, what would your next step be at that point? Would you, would you look to think about your lead magnet at that point or would it be something different?
Speaker 3: (22:28)
I would probably, I probably actually start wave wha what problem they have and corralling them into buckets. So I'd probably think about some, some, you know, the best thing is to solving the problem. So what problem is that I'm trying to solve and does that diff or can we corral that into one thing? Because it is, it's different. We need enough of something to make something out of it and to, to go through the effort of creating something. My first place is to start with the self liquidating offer. Now I've done this, I've done it the other way and I've looked at creating even the ads first. I'm trying to get a message they're promoting it.
Speaker 3: (23:22)
So, and I've done it from trying to create a lead magnet and then you realize that then you could spend that time on generating something that was more relevant would actually indicate interest more than I'd have. So start with the offer first of the self liquidating thing. I then break chunk of that out and I'd make a, I'd make some kind of free giveaway from, from, from that lead Mack there. I then also from that lead magnet create some kind of blog post or content from that lead back net. We know of, no, both of us have known for a while that just driving traffic into landing pages or squeeze pages isn't always, it is time, it's so works. But content and value first is a bit of a, as a bit of a micro commitment to gap Nikolay to get the consumption of content to get them to get to lead magnet.
Speaker 3: (24:16)
And then the lead magnet, the self liquidating offer is a much better journey than just going from ad straight to Oh, so now you just want to die. You don't want to get into the video. Say they raise or you can say the checklist or you want to download the report, you know, for me, you just need to take a little chunk out of each of those and you're going to have that content for the blog post. You're going to have that device for the lead magnet from the self liquidating offer. So start with that first and then make sure every step you just creating immense value, for, for, for, for, to the audience that you've [inaudible] in the first place.
Speaker 2: (24:53)
Nice. Okay. And then onto for the ads.
Speaker 2: (24:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so go market research to begin with. Then your self liquidating offer plan, what that's going to be for that market and then almost your opt in is kind of like to lubricate that all these like make sure that those two connect sort of thing to say, right, how are we gonna get that lead magnet in front of us are not self liquidating offer in front of that audience basically.
Speaker 3: (25:17)
Right. Yeah. And I'm, yeah. And, and then, you know, having that content as a bit of a front end or there in terms of a blog post to understand, you know, even time on page, I mean, I don't wanna get too complicated, but you know, you want to know people who are consuming that because people will consume a video. Some people consume a blog post, some people are wanting to download the lead magnet immediately because they'll consume content differently. But ultimately it's those conversion points the, the, that you need to consider, from, from, from now really beautiful thing about the, the, the, like the blog post or the ungated content of some sort. The beautiful thing about that is obviously you open yourself up to retargeting and remarketing as well. So people who have consumed that content and that's something I saw by Justin Brooke recently he was talking about, kind of like your timed remarketing pixels being fired after let's say 2030 seconds or so, cause then all that bounce traffic disappears and you're left with the people that have spent 20 to 30 seconds plus or you can, you can even get to two minutes or whatever you want to and only those people land on your retargeting list or your remarketing list. And as a result you've got like a higher quality, less people in it for sure. But a higher quality list there. And I thought was really clever obvious thing. The clever. Yeah, no, he's super clever. I mean you driving traffic to blog posts, you know, that's so valuable because you could end up wasting a lot of time. I mean, ultimately, yeah, it'd be nice to say, Oh, get 20%, 15%, 10%. But as a lot of people will tell you when you start playing that game in terms of driving people to content, the lead time from click to, to, to initial option is elongated because you're not necessarily directly giving them an offer to just opt in for something. So yeah, very valuable very valuable and important to understand that because just going back to what I said before in terms of, I mean you've put it across in a very succinctly that I think the, the, the point here is, well, once you have got those points in place, and you're creating your ad and the copy for your ads, in terms of the medium that whatever medium you're using for that, that they are all very congruent together and they all dial themselves back to that self liquidating offer I think that it's also important to know if you can measure those milestone points from the time that they get on the list and the time that they get on the list to converting to actually become a paying person. Buying the self liquidating offer also gives you an indication for how long and how much money you have to spend over what time in order to get those conversions as well.
Speaker 2: (27:57)
Yeah, I love that. I think that that's such a clever way of looking at things in terms of like you start with that big question of am I creating the right product for my market and does that market exist? Or you can work out all that stuff. But I really liked the strategy of saying, well start with the self liquidating offer and make sure that matches with the, with the audience or the people that are out there looking for this stuff already tie those two together because then you're making a list of hungry people hopefully for free if not a little bit of profit out of it. But then you know, you've got that proof of concept and you've got that list building all the time and you can even work out that product, that big end product at the end, you can say, right, we're going to try out this. If it doesn't work with, tweak it a little bit, well, we'll adjust it to make sure we find that perfect product, but you're not wasting a lot of money doing it at the same time.
Speaker 3: (28:44)
Yeah, definitely I think, good question and I think that that probably gives people a lot of perspective on not only a business within the business, a new business opportunity, a new product or even, you know, a new launch of something that they're doing even maybe their existing product, it gives them, gives some guidance to the thinking behind what to do. And, also, you know, how, how you can improve your existing offers really, of how that converting right now.