Speaker 1: (00:00)
You're listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom Breeze, here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.

Speaker 2: (00:14)
Hello everybody, this is Oli Billson and I am with Mr Tom Breeze, even better introduction. Thank you well, welcome everyone. I am excited for today's episode because, in one of our previous episodes we spoke with, with Tom about a new opportunity that he has with YouTube. And, what we wanted to do in this episode was just kind of dissect that, go through it and go through the thought process of this, this new opportunity, this new idea, and let you come along for the ride and kind of look over our shoulders really. And, while we, while we chew the fat on it and he saw, what the hell are you going to do about it? You know,

Speaker 3: (01:04)
I mean, for listeners and viewers, the whole idea of this podcast to begin with was so that Oli and I could ask each other questions and, or advice from each other and we thought it'd be a great podcast to have if people just each, our conversations. And as you can tell, we actually have these conversations, with each other and, and on very useful, but also it tends to get the waffle at the start. And so I apologize for that. It's not straight into concert every single time, but some people seem to like it. Right. So that's always good but, yeah, so more recently, I've been changing with the team and we've been looking into what we can do with YouTube. So I've had many YouTube channels in the past talking about things around, in, a long time ago.

Speaker 3: (01:51)
Public speaking, fear of public speaking more recently took that like video and it's kind of like video SEO and video conversion and what sort of stuff on my phone, breeze T reach. And I think it was, and I still have that constant out there still kind of sending me traffic every single day, which is great but I've moved the business to the agency and so it's a slightly different audience now. And when we've been thinking past like a bounce the agency and how we promote ourselves, like what we do with this podcast, we don't want to necessarily go flat out and say, here's what we want to do and get clients straight away. That's useful of course but we don't, we're not in a state where we're looking for clients every single day. We're lucky enough to have a lot of people be referred and we've done a lot of concept marketing into our presentation, so it tends to get a lot of really good prospects coming through.

Speaker 3: (02:40)
All the times we're in a fortunate position there, but I definitely do want to have a YouTube channel for the agency and something that people actually love to engage with. And let's face it, video advertising for those people into it. First. People aren't necessarily really passionate about it and especially with YouTube as well. It's one of those things where it's like, okay, yeah, that's kind of interesting, but it's not something that's going to be a kind of like you want to tune in each week. If you miss an episode, you know, that's fine. I don't mind it's not like you're going to be like [inaudible] like a daily show out of it. For example, we thought about doing lots of things like reviews, interviews as sort of stuff as well in the past. I just thought it just hasn't hit the nail on the head just yet and I don't feel fully comfortable that we've got the right theme for a YouTube video just yet.

Speaker 3: (03:26)
Our YouTube channel, sorry. And this is a question that I think a lot of brands ask themselves as well. It's like personal brands are quite easy because you're just giving your opinions, giving your extra authority on things. When it comes to a brand, it's a little bit more difficult because it's like you've got to consider what you're saying. I'm a little bit more carefully sometimes or maybe you don't do off the cuff videos. Maybe we want to be very professional all the time and you've got to think about that a little bit but what we've just kind of been thinking about very recently is the idea of creating a YouTube channel with a challenge to get to a million subscribers. Now in the space that we're in with marketing advertising that's not going to be easy, getting to a million subscribers to your YouTube channel just yet, and you might be thinking, well, what's the value of that as well?

Speaker 3: (04:15)
Is that a value? Like there wasn't a Facebook, while it goes have loads and loads of people have followers with your page, it kind of died off a little bit but with YouTube it's like the first micro-commitment or one of the first micro-commitments. Not that many people will go in like your video if you ask them to not that many people comments on the videos either. A lot of people do subscribe. It's like the first micro-commitment and they don't want to close your website just yet. They might not want to opt in just yet. But the great thing about subscribers is that it's like an email list really cause you get all the subscribers on your channel and then you can, when you release a new video, those people will be notified and they'll see new content from you and if you will provide them with really good content and stuff, they want to be passionately involved with this, then they're going to keep on tuning in, watching more videos.

Speaker 3: (05:01)
And then every now and again you can have a call to action. You can say, Hey look, if you find this content, you find it really useful. You can kind of sign up here for offering training or you can start here for our paid training or whatever you wanted to promote at that point. Whatever seems most logical as you're doing your videos. And so we've kind of come up with this challenge of how do we get to a million subscribers and the way that we're thinking about doing it. And by all means, this is like embryonic stage. So we haven't thought this through at all. Understand, but also discuss it with people and get your opinion and your thoughts and your input but then I was kind of thinking like documenting how we're going to do it. So as we do it, we kind of say, okay, like we release a video or five videos or whatever.

Speaker 3: (05:44)
And then every fifth video we might have another video just to give a bit of an update of like, okay, so here's where we're at. We released five videos recently. The view rates are really high, people are really engaging with this content and we're finding it's not getting very many subscribers or we're just basically documenting our journey to try and get this, this goal and walk it through, show people what works, what doesn't work. Or we're trolling out different types of videos, different types of targeting, different types of ads. We might run different types of promotion we might run, get people on board to see if we can help, do interviews, do reviews of stuff, see what kind of content resonates best, and documents always with y'all. So it feels like people can join this journey, to, no, sorry, help us get stimulated. But more case, like if you're interested in how to build a YouTube channel, we're going to ask for all the trials and tribulations and all the good stuff, all the bad stuff, and just be very transparent with the whole promotion as we go. But start from nothing sophomore channel. That's like day one so I thought that'd be quite a cool documentary style. And I, accountability basically yeah, I like it. I like it a lot. And it reminds me of something that I know obviously the media really panders to, you know, what you're about and, you know, the audience that you're building there. I think, a few years ago now, I sat in a, it was, it was New Year's Eve and I sat in somebody's lounge and we were talking about the past year and what happened and, and I only said what are being Chu in, on the RD role is actually creating a business over the next 12 months where I document how are went from zero to a million pounds, not $1 million, a million pounds within a new business. Kind of how we did that, what the thought process was and the idea of documenting that and having it as a, you know, a documentary showing what I was doing and then recording the results and, you know, publicly disclosing everything, you know, it could have been a huge failure.

Speaker 2: (07:56)
Or you know, and you know, you always have these self limiting beliefs in a certain way that you're either letting people in too much, you know, you're giving them the keys to the castle. So just be, or, actually it could be the best thing that you could ever do because it shows a certain sense of volume. How do we say [inaudible] vulnerability. Yes and so I think that's very endearing, as well. And regardless of the outcome, I suppose good or bad, of anything that happens, it's real and people like that. And I know a couple of things that, and just so everybody knows, no, I didn't do that but, here was the good news, in less than say, in less than 12 months, it did do that. So that was actually real. I actually did go from zero to seven figures in a year.

Speaker 2: (08:49)
What just because, you know, me, I'm not competitive at all. I suddenly felt that somebody was in the room and they said to me, well, have you ever done that before? And I said, no. And they said, well, so what makes you think you can do it now? I was like, well, I don't necessarily have to answer that, but I will just because I feel, I believe that I can. And that's all you need to know. So, just two fingers to the person that said that, who remembers that conversation right now who might be listening to this. So, any case, I think that, you know, what, what you're looking to do is it could, could work very well. And I know a couple of things that I've been following recently, the outlet at the moment, Russell Brunson's new book expert secrets, I've watched him not, and not really got caught up in the promotional stuff that's been going on with that.

Speaker 2: (09:47)
But actually more so what he'd been doing on the documentary side of that and, and that's been very insightful and very watchable. And I think that's the thing. You want something that's quite watchable and, I, you know, definitely, I, I like it. I like that style. I mean, not just might be just me, but I think the, you know, other people would feel the same way and there's very few people for me that I actually do follow and would subscribe to that channel anyway. You know, I don't want to get bombarded by stuff, but when it's something that you, I think that the behind the scenes over the shoulder, you know, the thing has a different perspective on things for most people and because you're an authority already, you know, you'll have in less than the next three to six months, a best selling book internationally.

Speaker 2: (10:48)
I'm coming to you soon. I'm not sure that you're selling just yet, but it'll be, it'll be out there. It'll be hopefully selling. Sure. Sure. What you are saying is that you'd like to hire an agency that would be able to get you, you know, the number one best seller and, and all of the associated anyway, you don't have to speak to my team about that, but yeah, but I think that it would work very well, the other thing is as well, and it's a slight slant. I think the thing is with, with any of these things is going into it. You're going into something with too much intent over doing it in a certain way, a certain format, every single time because you don't know what people are going to consume if you vary the format. And the, the, the, the script, the rhythm up a bit.

Speaker 2: (11:39)
And I know just recently, somebody that I follow a lot is a guy called Noah Kagan and Noah runs a company called AppSumo and a sink AppSumo and Sumo me M and M has these very short videos that he's been producing. If you look back in his YouTube channel, he'd done all of these different types of videos in the past. And then he got very, very specific in this sort of rhythm of video he did. And then he switched it up. And, what he actually, what I can see from his stat, from what I can say, the, the, the, the, the number of views spiked massively. He kind of got this audience that was watching these types of videos. Then he changed it into this sort of interview style which then spiked his views. And there might be, you know, there's going to be a number of things that could have caused that. I think it's just interesting to mix up the format to figure out who's watching what and why if you can and that would be my, you kind of take on it for sure Trump on like the right theme or something along those lines. Cause I know consistency is important or I don't want to get into is like this situation where we have to create content every single time we do a video and like what I don't think is going to be great for engagement if we just patched 20 videos together and say, there you go, here's 20 video. We might do a bit of that just to kickstart the campaign or whatever and we'll document what we do. But I'd almost be like, okay, let's create a video today. There's no good reason why it has to be today. If we wanted to quick freeze a day, we can do, and we might be kind of slow drip those out a little bit, but I don't want it to be like this project, I wanted to be a project that we look after and take care of and do it properly but I don't want it to be a massive stress because I've already got the agency to be like, I want my age and it's quality isn't it? It's that quality rather than quality quality rather than quality. And believable was, it was, it was the path to purchase screaming going off that just made me think quality and I just couldn't get it out of my head. So, so, so I'm just to circle, circle back around on that. It is quality rather than quantity, and I know I, I watched somebody recently that committed to doing this, you know, these, behind the scenes, Gary Vaynerchuck style videos every day, took a videographer wherever he was going and kind of, you know, talk to the camera. They started off okay. Okay. The quality of the production was very high. The quality of the content was mediocre and it's just gradually just got worse and worse and worse and worse. And really what he's holding onto is the quality of the production, and the way that that's done rather than the underlying message.

Speaker 2: (14:36)
You, you know, you come out of it feeling quite empty, you feel quite engaged by the look and the feel and the, the, the way that it's, it's curtain produced, but then you actually feel quite empty from the fact of like, you know what, I just wasted my time watching this. I mean, it was nice watching how well it was done, but the content was just, it was very tepid. You know, there was very, very, very, very surface level and I think there's a danger of when people do that because then it's like, Oh, for some people and probably not your ideal customers, they, they still like it because they see as you've almost celebritize yourself with this high end production. But actually the people that really know, probably, you know, all ultimately would be, pushed you, you would push them away the people that would engage with the actual content that was going on it, I think it's that balance that you, you always, you always up again.

Speaker 3: (15:37)
Yeah. I think a lot of people, and this is fair to say, I believe like I'm a Hey, a lot of people that see caravan shop want to emulate that and what I normally see is like, it's ego over anything else. So it's like, look at me and look at how great I am. And it comes with an undercurrent of that constantly and so I'm not a big fan of that sort of promotion and a turnip is my personality or whatever it is. But like, it's almost like I want people to find it, discover it at whatever episode and plus, my God, this is amazing. Like that's kind of like my field behind it. Not, it's not the fact it's me, it's not kind of like don't focus on me. Focus on what we're doing here. And like, this is me this quarter.

Speaker 3: (16:21)
Even if you are presenting the vast majority of it. But I'm looking to try and be like, Hey look, I'm doing this for the viewers, but I'm doing it with a massive benefits. And he's also, because I felt like once you get to a high number of subscribers, you release a new video and if 700,000 people watch it for free, I think that the benefit of that is huge because it's like if everyone just knows questions, the phone, people talk about it, you'll get like, big kind of like presentation opportunities. You'll get all these different things. The ramifications of it, not just straight, we're doing it to, to get clients, but it's more a case of like we're doing this to challenge it, but also we're going to be doing it mainly for R and D for ourselves. So it's like, all right, okay.

Speaker 3: (16:59)
So we've worked out that, let's say for example, we promoted this ad to get subscribers and the subscribers when we release a new video or likely to convert, and it's like if we know that there's like it's a one time hit subscribe the cost and it might be like much cheaper than acquiring a lead and you follow up with organic videos, all of the other ads that are then like high content videos, follow people up, then it's kind of like you, we might just find some new avenues to advertising or kind of like be like, okay, we've got to build a subscriber base because that's the asset you want to build. It's like having a large email database. It's like, you know, you can't go back to that in the email database, and tap into it to make a little sales and the money's in the list or maybe the monies that are in the YouTube subscribers to, yeah, sure, sure. I think there's, the other thing is that's always on my mind about haven't crossed anyone else's while they're listening to this as Stephen Covey says, start with the end in mind. You know, what, what is the good thing is you've already got a goal. So you've already got this, these lofty goals, but it's still a goal. The laughs, of reaching a, you know, a target number. But beyond that I would have, you know, coming into it with some level of intent over what, what are the byproducts of this? Because one thing that we know, there'll be associated opportunities that will be generated that might not be so obvious from the beginning for example, I was on a, on a podcast episode as a guest post and I got approached to do a paid speaking engagement.

Speaker 2: (18:39)
And then from the paid speaking engagement, there were two clients that came out of that. And then, so when you, when you look at these things, there's that robot that almost happened organically because of it. And I think that with what you're doing that then the, the certain may be evil. Having consideration of those things from the beginning allows you to then think, well, maybe I need to produce a media kit or maybe I need to produce some, I probably don't have as an asset that's going to allow me to leverage that in the right way so that I'm not just thinking that this is going to serve and provide great value into the audience and hope that something bubbles up as a result of that there's something more kind of left field about maybe there's actually another opportunity here which we haven't really thought of and what are the things that I need to consider with that so I could act on it quickly.

Speaker 2: (19:29)
That's probably what my, my thoughts would, would, would go to and it's not until you start something you start to get led to by what, you know, we're getting a good level of subscribers here what does that mean and who are they and what's the makeup of those? And just like video views on Facebook and then being able to create better retargeting ads. You know, you, you, you immediately go to what, what was an interesting metric. Now becomes another opportunity and then maybe those people are actually getting different videos. Maybe those people, stay, what you, where you take this. And, alternately has to serve a purpose within the marketing mix of the business. I'm like, Oh, I fell anyway and that's one of the reasons why, although we all could, you know, do those types of behind the scenes videos and you know, we were, you and may have both got video teams.

Speaker 2: (20:29)
So it's much easier for somebody like us to do it. It also comes down to focus as well of, you know, actually where do I put my time and what ultimately is going to have a, you know, a multiplication in terms of revenue for me on as an ROI based on that activity now you have a lot more free time than Nissan. So quite frankly, I mean, the thing is as well that people forget, you know, and there's a caveat to that is when people like enjoy business, they actually enjoy doing business. They enjoy, they just enjoy it is, it's some of these things which some people perceive as that's not right. Way to spend your time. It's kind of irrelevant because if you enjoy it and it just encroach other things that are meaningful to you, then why not do whatever you want to do if it's serving you in the right way. I mean, that's the answer really. You know?

Speaker 3: (21:29)
Yeah. I mean, look at it from a perspective of like, well, why are you doing what you're doing? And if you don't enjoying what it is you're doing, it's like maybe you're looking to build in the sell or something along those lines. But in my agency actually genuinely enjoy going to work every day, which is great and I feel like we are ready for new projects alongside the agency to support the agency, and, and see where we can take it. But yeah, it's a bit like these conversations documented. It's like I'm picking up information from you. I'm processing Kogan and adapt that a little bit so this kind of podcast does two things. One, it does. You and I have a chat and I can get some insights and feedback and likewise, hopefully the viewers gather some useful information because the questions I ask might be the same questions they would ask and I SWAT w [inaudible] was vice versa. You might be asking me questions. I can give you advice based on what I know. And so if you can pick up, I think there's something that may be that people listening to this might, you know, some people definitely would have got but at a higher level, I just wanted to put some perspective on [inaudible] the phase of business where you are that that is a, you know, an international advertising agency predicated solely on ruining profitable YouTube advertising to, you know, the, the, all of the names under the sun that we all know so well you are at a different phase of business. The purpose behind doing some of the activities that we talk about here need to have some perspective around it for probably some of the people that are listening that actually this brand play is the right play for your phase of business. You're not necessarily doing this. I just want to be clear about it. You're not necessarily doing this for or authority credibility and expert status or for ego.

Speaker 2: (23:28)
I think that that those things, you know, people may be listening to this. If they wanted to create one of those three things within their business, YouTube may well be a medium to do it, but probably not investing their time in a channel like your suggesting they would probably be bad as spending that time in doing some kind of, you know, ads paid ads, and, and, and having that, building that with information, first, teaching, showing, and solidifying that, that, that the status of that so that people begin to engage with that but for you, I think it's just important to did it any age that to know actually know my business means right now that we can actually put up a thumb, you know, a thumb print on this globally but more from a branding standpoint, which is a, is a different perspective isn't it?

Speaker 3: (24:26)
Yeah, exactly. I think that like, if I was looking at doing this sort of project two years ago, I'd be like [inaudible] it's like a lot of time and I don't have that time. I need to focus on building the business we're at the phase now where wasn't still building the business. It's activities like these, the tickets to the next level and take us to the next stage the team I built up and they're working really well with me and so my day to day activity is dropping each day giving me time to focus on things I should be focusing on. Because whilst this won't give an instant ROI from day one, like an ad campaign would do is the sort of thing, when I look back at it three years later, I'm like, well, I'm writing a book for example.

Speaker 3: (25:06)
It's like I haven't written the book for can I get or why they want to position the brand and position me and position everything we're doing. So like in five years time you look back and like of course all that work. We did that then we were reaping the rewards. Now I wouldn't have gotten the introductions like I've got through business Oh my first starting out with campaigns and clients like I would do now. That makes sense. Like I'm noticing a few breakthroughs like half of me in the agency where we kind of like, I've got to do some big presentations, access to great blogs to write on as well. We went onto some podcasts and things and off the back of that point, all the education, I learned, all the apply application theory, learning, all this stuff, it kind of, it, it builds up and all of a sudden it's kind of like, it takes, it's a whole new level.

Speaker 3: (25:55)
And I feel like we're now at the stage where we're doing the same thing again. It's like write, write the book, do this new projects that no one else is doing, going to a whole new area. And we're looking to put more of a brand play in terms of not only for us but looking to say, right, household brands, that we're looking to target and say, right, this is where we're going next. It's an interesting perspective to be like, okay, well how would they view this? What would they look at this like, will it take us to a whole new level because it's kind of like, and it's enjoying the process at the same time. So yeah, you're right. It's, I'm not looking at this in terms of a lot of stuff that I'm doing right now is not looking at it from an ROI perspective from the day.

Speaker 3: (26:35)
Like now bringing on clients is it's like, all right, we're just going to apply. That's going to increase our income and it's also going to increase the workload. So it's got a bit of a balance. Cause we might a new team member, we might need these sorts of considerations but it's no longer, this is going to take more time from me. So it's, it's allowing me to, say, right, great. That's kind of running a nice, I'm on there every day and I'm working on some of the accounts myself as well. But, but it's my team along with and it's those guys that are running the show now.

Speaker 2: (27:05)
I think it's the same thing with [inaudible] books. I know you've mentioned, and I know that you're using some of the OD recommended to you to, to, to help you with the book and I think what's important as well is we're talking about those phases of business that people go through the objectives and the strategies and tactics that get you from one face of the other, a different, the, you know, and, and so you're in a different phase. And it's the same thing with writing a book. You know, it may well be that some of the people listening to this, the purpose of what, how you're writing that book, you know, it is in your case, it is clearly articulating the path to purchase. It is clearly articulating the framework, the system behind the thinking behind these things. But it wasn't necessarily work very well for somebody else to go into writing a book like that where because of the fact that that's not necessarily a lead generation book.

Speaker 2: (28:07)
Now, I just received a book today from somebody. I'm 101 fast, good cheap hacks to writing a killer Selva. That book is not a book that in the same that this person is not in the same phase of business stage of business as you are. That is a lead generation tool. Now, to some degree, yours may be, but it, but it's more brand, it's more positioning, that, that sort of book is rightful. And, I've heard a few people recently, whether it be something like this YouTube idea that you're talking about, whether it via a, you know, some kind of personal documentary, with somebody following you around with a video camera or whether it be writing books and, and the thing that they never ever consider is what are we trying to do here? You know, what, what are we trying to, where are we trying to go with this?

Speaker 2: (29:07)
And I think that the reason why you're taking you some time, we, we spoke about it for the last few years is this was the right time for you to make this move into some of these things. And actually I think it's a great idea with the YouTube channel being quite supportive of that. But for other people it's different, isn't it? It's, it's thought process of not necessarily thinking, Oh, they've done it. I should do it. It's like, does that fit for me you know, writing a book is a great thing to do is a great lead magnet. It's a great asset to have to generate leads, but it's not necessarily going to be the book where you, you know, pull back the curtain and go behind the scenes of here's your matrix, your framework, your, your, format of business. It's just not the right thing to do. So I just wanted to bring some perspective to everyone listening because, to me, something I've picked up on a lot and people are very quick to jump to advice. Don't rise a book like that, you know, don't record videos like that, you know, don't run ads like that. It's all with what, what's the purpose you know what, why are you doing what you're doing? And that's often the best place to start.

Speaker 3: (30:15)
Well, that's so true. It's like, I think you go through phases as well of your own education in terms of like when you first start out, you think you should be doing everything and then you realize like, Oh, she really good at this one thing. And, and we don't need all the other stuff we bought in the past. And then you get to the next phase where you're like, okay, we can, we can do a load and we know that we need to test more and do any, almost like it gets that point which you, you know, you don't know a lot of stuff again, sort of thing. So like hence why we have these conversations now it's like I need to pull on your expertise at some point cause I know I don't know about some, some areas and it's so important to kind of keep that in mind.

Speaker 3: (30:54)
When building out and still things cause it's like I know that people go to these seminars, go to events, watch webinars and they feel like, Oh my God, it's been sold. I've just bought this new products. They just didn't need, or on kind of brought my book. Now it's like younger I need to write about just yet or it can be, it can be anything. It could be certain times and phases where it is right for people to do certain things but I know that I only get into things where I feel really comfortable with it. If something doesn't feel 100% ready for it, I'm like, I hold back until I do for 100%, because then when it does go 100%, you can go, then it goes right. And so that was the time of the book, like about a year ago.

Speaker 3: (31:29)
And now with this YouTube challenge as well, it feels like, Hey, we've got to do it because I want to, I want to get into this and will understand how this works properly because it's the next stage of the business CS, it's just, it's, it's when it feels right, I think it's like sometimes when people go organize this seminar and I know we're going to be a pitch Fest and they're gonna take their credit cards with them. It's like you're not, it's not the cash you're wasting, which is one thing, but it's actually time your not spending prioritizing what you should be doing as the, as the big problem. That really, it's like, Oh, I'm going to go and write this book. It's like, that book's not going to help you at this stage of your business. He's a prioritize what it is you're doing. He really good at that. That's the SDM. That's the thing.

Speaker 2: (32:09)
Yeah, definitely. I, I'm, I'm, you know, I think that we, we've seen this approach and slight deviation. I, I guess, what w what, when it comes to, this podcast, but, so then I just want to share with people was, you know, as you know, and I know that you do as well we do a lot of work with information marketers, speakers, trainers, consultants, authors and thought leaders, industry transformers are going to have any other words I've got for these people.

Speaker 3: (32:41)
I'd like to industry transformers essentially. I haven't had that one, but I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: (32:46)
I definitely didn't make it up, but I'm still, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, and one of the things, one of the mistakes that people make is they look, and there's nothing wrong with looking back and looking at how other people have structured that businesses, or how they initially structured that businesses. But what you come to realize is those business models evolve and the typical kind of information marketing type business where there's a pyramid, a not pyramid sales but a pyramid. And there's an Ascension ladder to the top of the pyramid. There is a newsletter business at the core, there is a coaching business as a mastermind leading up to private consulting. And you know, and then the very, very top kind of the business we playing, which is done for you business, the way that that's structured is often with, you know, basically on if you've got enough money then you can move up the pyramid.

Speaker 2: (33:45)
So the idea is you learn from us, you spend more money, you buy more products, you do all of this stuff that you may or may not need. And it gets you to the next step and then you keep on investing and then you have more money and then the next thing you need, you go up to the next step. And often it's very much you can buy your way into what you think you need and it's what you think you need. Now, the way that we often look at these things now is, is having a look at, instead of it being like a ladder with different tiers and stuff like that, it's just very much like, okay, what phase of business are you? Instead of looking at like a pyramid, let's look at it more in a linear way, from left to right or right to left.

Speaker 2: (34:29)
Let's have a think about it. Of like, okay, revenue from zero to $100,000. Okay. Likelihood as you've, how many employees of yours? So you've got this many employees. Okay, good. What are your challenges between zero to a hundred thousand and what does that mean for you? What should you focus on? Okay. And then so you can build your offerings around where you know people are [inaudible] and then, and the thing is what people join for is different to what they stay for and the problems change, you know, when their revenue changes and the number of staff they have changes. And all of these are considerations. And so I just wanted to kind of bring that to the table and we can talk about it in different episode of how we think about and structure these info businesses these days and expert businesses because it's very different to the way that it used to be. And it just talks to what you were just talking about the there and certainly where your concern of your phase of business and what your priorities are very different.

Speaker 3: (35:30)
Yeah. I think everything impacts it. Technology, different advances in what you're doing, and everything around that as well as you grow as a business as well. So it's always fascinating to see how this grows with them in conscious of a time with this episode. So we can go in for a low more. And if we open up the next conversation, you could open up a whole can of worms. So what do we do this, why don't we, next episode, let's talk about, some more of like as we advanced as business owners, what, and we have more growth and more, more team members, more clients and customers. And we talk about what your experiences have been like going through that growth, and talk about, kind of like what learnings you can share with our listeners as well, right? Yeah. Love. Look forward. Look forward to that. And that's what I'll say on the next one. And unless somebody [inaudible].

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