Speaker 1: (00:00)
You're listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom Breeze are here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.

Speaker 2: (00:14)
Hey, how you doing? This is Oli Billson and I'm with Mr Tom Breeze. Hey Tom. How you doing? Very good. Oli, how are you? Very well. Very well. I'm splendid. I'm splendid. Yeah, I've been, I've been putting on this elaborate English accent because I've just got back from the States and so, you know, I find that, you know, trying to make an impression on people with an English accent and is one thing, but then doing it in a very over the top way just gets you much better results. So all you've got, you've got to, you've got to bring out the inner Hubraum that's going to be, yeah, yeah. And only [inaudible] could probably pull that off a lot better than me to be honest. Well, of course but the, we did a test, actually we did, a video, which was mostly animation and we did a test of, us accent versus a UK accent and tested for both the UK and the U S and we've found that you can actually do better in the UK and the UK actually did better than the U S as well, so that you can actually cause a stronghold accident.

Speaker 2: (01:19)
It, quite a converting accident. So if a good American that listen again, just start adopting that you can action well, we'll embrace it. We'll love it. And you'll get better conversion rates as well. Yeah, that's good. I was slightly affected. I mean I don't, I was slightly offended not by that I was slightly offended because they, they kept making the analogy that I was like dr who because I was wearing this sort of, you know, checkered type of suit to go on stage with and yeah. And it kind of never really left me. So I was actually quite glad to get out of there and stop, you know, being in front of people because they kept saying it. I was like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. When you say, when you say they, who do you mean? Oh, you know, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, people, the people.

Speaker 2: (02:01)
You're getting very poor. Partially the people. Yeah. White people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, but yeah. Anyway, I'm back in the London living back in the UK and I know you are T because you've just got back from Australia. So we've been working in my new studio as well. We've, we've moved into a new office and I'm in the new studio, so yeah, it's pretty funky. I feel that if people are familiar with the video side of these episodes and pack the purchase, if you go back maybe, you know, like 10 episodes ago, you would have seen me in my studio in a very similar kind of setting to you which I feel that, you know, I obviously set a good example and instead, now I've slipped back to this rather casual backdrop. Whereas you have, you know, really upgraded in, in lots of ways. Well, I think Botox, Botox, Botox. Yeah, for sure not the, I always, I like to try and improve things. I know that you've got the opposite way and try and make things worse all the time, which you're very good at by the way. Thank you. We're getting better at doing that, that's for sure. But now I like to try and improve my performance over and over and I start pretty low though, so it's quite easy. Yeah. So that's, that's how I tend to work but then this, this is actually the Blackboard behind me. If you're listening in, this makes no sense to you whatsoever. But if you're watching, then this is the Blackboard. This is like, I haven't put chalk on this Blackboard yet, so it's really like the Virgin black back a Blackboard here but very soon the, the white will be on that and it, it'll just be, it just gets all dusty and it goes crazy. But it does look good though.

Speaker 2: (03:39)
Reminds me of when I used to have a new pair of football boots and I used to, you know, get to the gate, you know, get changed to go out a PE during, during school and somebody come and stamp on your new boots because they didn't know I need to be there. Take any new shoes. You have the school as well. It's just the classic thing of just like step in a puddle and step on someone's foot. And it's like, right. There's your shoes ruined. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, what a horrible upbringing. But I mean, I mean that's what I feel. You got bullied. Yeah. That's a real, real harsh one's stepping on your boots or cut me where I know it right now. I feel like really it's like one of those internet marketing stories. You can, you can use this as your, like as your, as your starting point. Like, Oh, this is, this is how bad it once was. I was once, I once had some muddy shoes. That was a great starting place. Yeah. Well, you know, somebody should come a mess that board up for you for sure. So, well that'll be messed up soon enough, so don't worry.

Speaker 2: (04:41)
Yeah. Okay. That's cool. So, obviously we're not here to talk about your Blackboard, but we are here to talk a little bit about some of the things that you've been up to, what you've been doing and some of the, the things that you've been learning along the way, watch new. What's working, what should we speak, be speaking to our listeners about?

Speaker 3: (05:05)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I think that, if people don't know, the reason why we are a little bit quiet for a time there on the podcast is because we're both traveling so much. And, so what did it, five and a half weeks towards the world and around the world trip. And, I started off in San Diego and, I was speaking at TNC, I gotta give a couple of presentations there and I took the family with me as well, actually. So wife, kids and mother and daughter as well. We went together and stayed in San Diego for 10 days, which was really nice. Got that early to overcome the jet lag. Cause I did it last year, still felt like a bit jet lagged as I was doing everything. So just got there early this year and with two kids struggling with two kids, I found that, jet lag quite quickly, not an issue, cause they're gonna get you up crazy hours anyway.

Speaker 3: (05:54)
And then, so I gave my two presentations, San Diego, they weren't well, and then swiftly flew to a little stop to LA and then straight out to Sydney, which is quite fun. So right over the Pacific and landed in Sydney. And then a few days later I had a mastermind with James Schramko, which is amazing, so his silver circle group, which is amazing guys, so knowledgeable if people are listening in and don't know of James Schramko not changed Franco, that's the actor, but James Schramko, he is a phenomenal brain and there's more to him, but just the brain. But, super nice guy as well. And, just a very, very cool connected, but he's a mentor to me for over a year now and the results have been incredible. And as a result, he's been really helpful in just any big question. I've got ants ask him each week and just gets answered perfectly and a big shout out to James, but I was out there because he was running an event there.

Speaker 3: (06:56)
So, I was speaking at that event as well in in manly if people know Sidney weld and it's a man, he's a lovely little area and outside of Sydney and you get a boat there, it's really nice and then the state of Mandy for another three weeks and then after that I flew to Dubai on the way home, had four days there and then back to the U K and I'm finally back in the office. It'd be the first week back and the first week back and Friday is good Friday, so only four days this week and then four days next week as well. So it feels like a very nice, smooth ways. The week, but that's it. I, I, I enjoy work, so I don't find it that short or, but, yeah, a lot, a lot actually. I met with a lot of people and it was really, really good.

Speaker 3: (07:40)
One of the best things I think I took away, one thing I remembered early on in the trip was I was speaking to Mike Rhodes who's AdWords, expert again, super amazing person if anyone's advertising on AdWords at all. I'm definitely a guy to connect with and we both know Mike well and yeah, Mike was drinking, on an evening and we're just having some, dessert, wine, dessert, wine of all the things he's into his dessert wines big time. I'm now into my dessert wines. It looks very feminine, but, I can carry it off quite well.

Speaker 3: (08:16)
Yes, very well indeed. I can imagine yes. And, the, so yeah, so we, we were drinking as some dessert wine. We were talking about kind of a business and all sorts of good stuff. And he gave me a really good analogy of what a business owner should be doing. And he says it's rather like putting on some myths. So like you mentioned, you put like often gloves on for example, Mets and he goes, now imagine you had that all day. That's the sort of tasks, the tasks you can do with mitts on or the tasks that you should be doing as a, as a business owner. And that was pretty clever cause I thought like, yeah, anytime I'm starting to type or starting to do anything technical or anything like that, I need to step away and think, imagine I have mitts on and I couldn't actually touch the touch type and I couldn't do this, what would I do then?

Speaker 3: (09:02)
And that's kind of like, it's, it's really been really, really interesting for me coming back this week and seeing, that lots of things had been working, the business, a few things I've had to catch up on a little bit as well. But I'm now having that analogy of like, I can't use my hands, I can use them to pick up things, but I can't use them to, to do detailed work has been a really interesting thought process for me and so it's meant that when we got some more members of staff coming on quite soon, it's just me. It means I'm kind of restructuring a few things based on that mindset. So I thought that was a really interesting takeaway that's been stuck with me and yeah, that's good. And I think he learned it from somebody else as well, so I'm probably missing out some sort of credit to somebody somewhere.

Speaker 3: (09:44)
But, needless to say, Mike had that knowledge in him and I thought, that's fantastic. It's a good and a little bit of a bit of a soundbite there for, for our listeners. But, then, Jay has traveled to Australia and met with James Schramko and the big takeaway I took from that, and, and big bear in mind, I'm always looking, whenever I go to conferences, I don't take notes with me. I don't even have my phone out. I just sit there and listen because I know that I'm going to say no to, even though it's really good advice, I'm saying no to so many things because I know I'm not going to implement it. I like to soak it in, but I'm not gonna make notes on it and then as soon as that one thing comes up, I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 3: (10:22)
And something that came up for me, two things. Actually, one thing that came up for me that was a really good thing was a PR presentation from Andrew Locke. And again, he's a very, very clever guy good marketer or great marketer and he runs a show called help my business it's like a TD, what's like a video podcast rather like what we're doing. But he has like a whole big set up and it's very, very fancy and it's amazing. And he's very, very, very funny guy as well. But, he gave some advice about how to find new content to talk about. And, there's lots of content aggregators out there and one of the ones is BuzzSumo. And for me we write lots of scripts and tried to think of new ideas to scripts all the time to different clients and things.

Speaker 3: (11:06)
And also Sumo, is it dot.com is a great website to go to to just type in a few keywords that would be relevant and you can do it your own niche as well as I think of concept yourself as well. And you just see all the most popular blog posts. So not the most, not the best ranking Pope co blog posts or articles or I think are the ones that have been shared the most, the ones that are being viewed the most, the ones that had been liked the most, et cetera. And so you can see what's most popular content and it's really useful because it gives you that refreshing viewpoints and think, Oh okay, I did not realize that that would be quite useful for people. But yeah, I get it now I understand it. So for us it's been like a really good place just to check in with what's popular in a particular nation and maybe use that to influence the scripts that we write and things.

Speaker 3: (11:50)
So that was, that was an interesting one for us and the other thing I learned also, and this has been a profound thing for me for the advertising especially, is that the first impression to cold traffic is just so important and it's more important than ever realized if you imagine if you went to a coffee shop and you were to go in there and it's the first time you'd ever been to that coffee shop, that first time you walk into that coffee shop is going to be, it's going to make up 100% of your experience at that coffee shop. Right. And, whatever happens there, good or bad or whatever, you're gonna remember it for that. It is bad. You're not going back. Cause it's 100% of your experience with that coffee shop has been bad. It's good. 100% of your experience at that coffee shop has been good.

Speaker 3: (12:32)
And so you love it and go back again. And then so the more and more you like to go to this coffee shop, if you've had a great experience like a hundred times, and then the hundredth time you have a bad experience for any reason, then at that point it's not too much of a nightmare. You still want to go back cause you've had 99 times it'd been good and one's time has been bad and you're just kind of like I said, okay well I was just a one off and a Nutri would be a one off and that's fine to have that cause people can deal with that. It's better to have all the say a hundred times best, a pretty good service but one time every now and again is understandable but it's so interesting how like, I think that so many people are promoting their businesses in such a way where that first impression is like a really pushy sales message or a really kind of like not really taking care of their customers or not really understanding what the customers are going through and start with like, Hey, we've got this.

Speaker 3: (13:22)
Come and buy it. Instead of people like, Hey, how can I actually help you? And if you can start to change that conversation. So that first conversation that you have with a potential prospect is actually a really decent communication. And that's that, that's their full experience of you so far. Is that like, Hey, I love this brand. It's amazing. And if you start there, and in employee things like remarketing, if you're gonna get technical with things, but if you have to start there and give a really good experience, it means that you've, you may not necessarily massively increase your conversion rates, but you've started off on the right footing. So the chance of them becoming a PO like a boy at that point is probably higher, but it just feels better to advertise like that. I feel. I feel like if you get a really good impression in front of people, that's kind of like what we've all we've always tried to do.

Speaker 3: (14:04)
I know that we've done some TV style ads in the past which have been quite pushy and we still do those sorts of ads every now and again when, especially when it's like to existing database or it's to a people that have seen four of our ads already and we hit them up with another remarketing video when it's like that and you say, Hey, we've got a webinar tonight. If you've led that with like three pieces of great content and then you've got like a, a stronger call to action in a video, that's a great time to use it. But it's that first impression. I think that's most important to say, Hey, look, do you know what? We're going to start with really, really good value, really good experience, and really just understand what the user's actually wanting and try and provide that.

Speaker 3: (14:41)
And so that was another big takeaway I took from from Australia and then we flew into Dubai and we said the Atlantis, you know, the big one that looks like Disney world, almost all the Disney palace type thing is better. It's modeled on that did not realize, but they've got the biggest, I don't know if it's the biggest fish tank in the world, but it's a biggie. It's a big old fish tank there but the, what interested me was like the, the way in which it's kind of like done. It's, it's huge. It's massive and the, the way it's done is it still makes you feel intimate enough sort of thing. All the staff there really go the extra mile, which is really good. It's like, it feels very different to the, to the UK and the UK.

Speaker 3: (15:28)
Waiters, waitresses, people that, staff, the big hotels for example, you very rarely get amazing customer service, I find. I don't know about you, Oli, but, but the U S the U S are fantastic at doing customer service, always amazing service and in Dubai is actually the same thing. And so we, I, I, for me, I felt like such a kind of huge, like, wow, this is incredible. The fact that they go this far to, to really try and put on an amazing service for you, but in the butt it just goes to show like it's a, it was a memorable experience. It's a memorable thing to happen. And, and I just think that that's such an important thing. It's like, it really reinforced that idea that like I've gone to the Atlanta, so I had an amazing experience. They were really good.

Speaker 3: (16:14)
And they were really helpful almost all times. They were kind of like anything. We wanted to just therefore a straight away. And, I just felt like you would not get the same thing in the UK and it's maybe a bit of a cooler to the UK people to say, Hey, look, we need to increase our customer service and really think about it. But, likewise, I think it's, it's, it's, it's the memory, I suppose it's that kind of like the, the thoughts when I think of like Dubai now or I think of Australia or I think of America, I think of amazing customer service. I think of actually genuinely caring, but I don't have that in the U K and that might be biased because I live in the UK. But I wonder what you think about that audio as well. Cause I know you do a lot of traveling as well. Do you find so much the same thing? Like the service tends to be better when you're away?

Speaker 2: (16:55)
Yeah, I think there's fairly congruent and I just think that there's a lot of things that go around supporting that experience and you know, people are, marrying up or getting a lot wiser to marrying up, a good positive experience beyond the, the purchase in terms of that marketing, in that followup and some people do this very well. You know, there's some hotel chains that do this extremely well and, you know, some that, you know, even though they are in the same market that competing against each other, that was a stark contrast between the two, as far as that, that service goes. And, and that followup goes as well along with that, because it's all about experience as you mentioned. And then I would tend to agree with you that we've got a little bit of catching up to do here in the U K, when it when it when it comes to that stuff.

Speaker 2: (17:55)
But therein lies a very good opportunity for people that, that, that are in the UK, to, to, to, to take a stock of, of other things that are happening and, and then obviously implement them in their business, because it can have a profound impact on, on people's, you know, perception of you and the likelihood and that propensity to refer you to other people as well. So, you know, that, that really, you know, certainly it doesn't surprise me, about what, what you're saying there at all you know, you know, did a lot of traveling recently and I would tend to agree. What I'm interested in finding out is, and this might be quite a nice way to kind of, just maybe get a little, perhaps a little tactical, or maybe just to remind ourselves of something that we, we probably spoken about before. What would be, was there anything revolutionary to you anything that's really probably transformative to a lot of businesses and I saw you that because one of the expressions that I always have is, you know, there's, there's rarely anything new under the sun and there's certainly no silver bullets around so, you know, so to me there's just a need [inaudible] that one. Yeah. So, you know, is there anything that, that, that you say is that emerging, that, that people should be paying attention to?

Speaker 3: (19:41)
I think that one of the, I'll just, I've just written a book on this, Oli now I've just, I just finished my, my book and it's going through the editing stage at the moment and front covers. And all that sort of stuff at the moment and the book that I've written is very, very heavy on user experience. So, it's, and I, I think this is, I think this is the way that people have to start looking at advertising and promotion of any business. And I think that a lot of the time when I was at, these conferences, there's still a, a focus of saying, here's my product, here's the benefits of my product, let's display that on an ad. And now who can I talk to who could be interested in this? And it's very much like product focused advertising.

Speaker 3: (20:36)
And I think that's, that works still, don't get me wrong, but I would like to see it change. And I think, I think consumers would like to see it change. And when they see change, they see such a big difference in the connection they can make with a brand. So imagine if you flipped that on its head and you said, right, this is a potential customer, this is an issue, this is what they're going through right now. Now stop there. And maybe even change what your product is potentially what your services, but really start with the customer in mind whenever I was at these conferences, and, and the leading conferences, and they'll get me wrong, they're amazing stuff, but a lot of the, even the expert speakers we're still talking about like what we do is we do this first ad and the people that engage with it, we then follow those people up with more ads.

Speaker 3: (21:28)
So we, we give really good value first apparently. And then with the ones that engage with it will hit hard again. And when they do that, they are targeting people typically on Facebook, we'd like this message and they'd say only around about 10 to 15% of people would actually engage with the video. And I think, well, that's still another 85 to 90% of people that didn't engage with the video that they're seeing the brand and deciding not to engage with it. And I just, I get frustrated when I see ads on my newsfeed I get frustrated when I see YouTube ads as well. So don't give me, I'm not being biased to it. I get frustrated most of the time. It is when it's poor advertising, basically when it's poor, like here's a message, but hopefully someone's going to stick to this. Hopefully someone's going to listen to this.

Speaker 3: (22:09)
And if they do, now we're going to bombard those people. That's the best, the tactic that I think most people are taking from that. It's not that they're always doing that, but that's the, that's the learning that a lot of people are taking. It's like how many people are out there? Let's push this ad now. How many people have engaged with it and how push more ads at those people and it's just because it's cheap on YouTube, but I think it's lazy from marketers and advertisers. I think that's, we need to flip that on its head and think, right, how do we engage? How do we, how do we actually provide something useful? So it's those people. So if we're all on Facebook, what's actually going to make someone's day a better day? What can we do to actually genuinely help them upon and not go in with like, here's what I'm going to come to sell first, but here's another help you first.

Speaker 3: (22:51)
And then of course I know I'm going to sell you something in due course, but starting with that intention to say, Hey look, I'm actually genuinely here to help you. I'm actually genuinely here to, like even if you see this ad and don't go any further. I'm good with that to a quote. Now I know that's a, it sounds like I'm not even caring about return on investment and sound very [inaudible] sort of thing, but when we've done this with clients and we just start to put that perspective of like, how can I make this advert a better experience for you we've always found the ROI is stronger we've done it many times with different forms of advertising. We've done one recently where we do, I think I spoke about this at TNC where we, and a lot of presentations since then as well.

Speaker 3: (23:32)
We do this choose your own adventure style video ad. So like at the end of the video, we don't say click to go to the website, which feels very salesy. We say, Hey look, we've got some great content for you, but you decide where we go next. Do you want to click a or B? It's like given the option at the end of the video to say, Hey, look, yeah, I'm this sort of person or I want this sort of advice and not that sort of advice. They choose where they want to go next and then we can give them bespoke information based on that choice. But we see so many more people engage with the ad and it's great cause YouTube prefer that and the user prefers that and you get a better ROI as well, from that whole like whole process.

Speaker 3: (24:09)
But it's about starting with the user first. And that's really what we're coming down to. It's very rare that people actually start with the user first they may pay lip service to it, but they don't actually do it. But when you do, it works out a lot better for the user and for company so that's kind of my, not necessarily, revelation or anything like that. I just feel like that's something that the market right now is missing. It's an obvious thing. It's a, it's an easy thing to talk about, but it's not such an easy thing to do because there's other really cheap, attractive ways of advertising right now. But I think that like, that's going to be a fad, like push, push, push cause it works right now, but then the cost of advertising is going to go up and that tactic work, work any longer.

Speaker 3: (24:52)
But the ones that will stick around for longer will be the brands that actually build a relationship with their customers and genuinely care for them because it doesn't, they don't care about the platform. I like it. We grow with this methodology. We go with this brand message. This is what it is all about. Is that about genuinely helping? Because then it doesn't matter what platform we're on. It doesn't matter what the cost is because we keep on moving to different platforms. But we can stay there because we could do a good job, as opposed to flushing the pan. Right? Where, where else can we go now? Because Facebook's got expensive. Let's go to Instagram and that's got expensive. YouTube, we'll ask got expensive next one. And that's it. That's a difficult way of existing. It's much better to set up shop and do a proper job and advertise like, like you are advertising to your family if you do it that way life tends to become a lot easier when it comes to your advertising efforts.

Speaker 2: (25:38)
Yeah, I think that would be my takeaway. Yeah. I think that that also, that, that that's also very congruent with, with, with something that we've become a lot more aware of, is that relationship at quitting, you know, you spend time on building a relationship with somebody, getting them to know, like, and trust you. And, in doing that, leading with information first, you often see this, very well, you know, in, in, in good practice why people are doing video ads on Facebook, for example, within the app, they're actually teaching within the app. They're not necessarily playing for the, the, the call to action and you know, there's a, there's a number of things that are going on that, you know, with video views and stuff like that, as you were mentioning, but that their intent is that leading with good information first, to solidify that relationship.

Speaker 2: (26:36)
And the thing is that every time you keep going back to somebody who's not necessarily progressing forwards. And it's one of the reasons why in some of the funnels that we make, we have a very deliberate path of progressive and non-progressive tracks and people can come from one track into the next track dependent upon that, recency and frequency to the communications. But without getting kind of really detailed about this stuff, you have to understand that every single time you keep going back to somebody if that frequency isn't mated with where they are in the process, you are burning the relationship equity every time. You either put an ad back in front of them or you put an email back in front of them, and you, you're losing something. You are eroding something that you've created and then you totally, I totally agree with that.

Speaker 2: (27:35)
Because you know, just by human nature that stands to reason, but yet we still, you know, we still see many people trying to, you know, ask for the name of the children that they're going to have on the first day, you know, or you know, asking him to marry them on the first day. So, you know, it's, it's, it's very, very true. I, I actually think it's probably a topic that we can, we can, we can talk about a lot more tactically, in another episode and, and, and talk about how we, how we bring these two things together, but very interesting. Very interesting.

Speaker 3: (28:16)
Yeah. I think I would love to ask you the question of like, what's the damage of sending an email? It doesn't connect right to your audience because how many, how many times do you reckon you could do that before? On average, people are like, okay enough for this brand. Do you know if, if you, if you sign, I know I've done this before, I sign up to something cause I was genuinely interested. And then it classically goes to a trip was like, okay fine, classic marketing move. I'm not really interested in that, but I've said no to you now. Immediately I signed up and said yes and now immediately saying no. It's like, that's frustrating so that's kind of like, one side of it. So it's like what the relationship and that, what the user experience is going to be like. But then I also would like, I'd wonder what you think of like saying, well how many times can you email someone before if they don't connect with the first email because they actually just genuinely weren't interested in it, but they may have opened it but not interested. How many times can someone kind of like say no to your emails before that just disappear?

Speaker 2: (29:13)
Yeah, I think you, I think you also, you begin to discern what the difference is between somebody still being marketable and still being engaged. Meaning that they're still opening and clicking emails, but not necessarily taking the action that you want them to take versus somebody that's marketable but not engaged, meaning they are on your list, but you can't actually, you know, you can't actually communicate with them. They're just not opening your emails. And so, you know, that's really where, there are, there is a consideration for what you do in both of those eventualities. And there's so the tactics of igniting the conversation with the people that are not engaged but in the same way. So you don't, you know, burn the equity, with the people that are engaged that are opening your emails but not necessarily taking your action actually to put yourself in their shoes and think, do I actually need to start more of a conversation with these people versus my conversation, which is one way, over what I want you to do.

Speaker 2: (30:29)
And that can often, start to throw up, different thoughts around, well, how am I actually selling to these people? And a lot of people go to the market to lead generate very effectively buying traffic or buying media I'm even doing a half ass job of doing it is going to get you some, some results, in terms of getting some leads. But if you go to market without ever thinking about how you're actually gonna sell to them, then you need to know that before you start to do anything. And in some cases people just have it wrong that, you know, they think that they're going to be able to convert people, you know, or like an automatic customer all of the time when actual fact they may need to go offline and have an actual dialogue with somebody to get them to buy and they're probably leaving a lot of money on the table if they're not doing that.

Speaker 2: (31:25)
But if they're not thinking about that as part of the sales process, they're probably not collecting their phone number. So they can't actually follow up with them. Why SMS or even an outbound call. So you know, the, the, the, the relationship equity thing is, is, is, has so many is multifaceted because you have to consider all the different ways in which that, that, that you present and you show up in front of people. Is that always via email? If so, then there's a much higher likelihood that that's going to get burned or get lost very easily. Whereas, you know, if it's a situation where we have additional information, then we can actually build our relationship back up with them again because we can start the conversation in a different modality. It's really interesting. I think in the next episode or gonna I'm going to ask you a question which is going to be maybe not the next episode very soon episodes. I'm saying it now so I can remember, remember to do it, but I wanted to ask you why you think people are very happy to think about the post opt-in once they've got the opt in, they're very happy to segment their audiences, treat them in different ways, build all these clever Infusionsoft funnels, et cetera. But then when they look at their advertising, it's just like blanket, here's my ad. Someone come in and then we'll start a better relationship. But it's, it's so interesting that they don't start that conversation when they first advertise or this first promote thinking about like, why don't we start this segmenting now? Why don't we actually create ads for people that actually want this stuff?

Speaker 3: (32:58)
And it feels very much like, I put this amazing infusion soft or whatever CRM you're using amazing campaign based on all these different, if this, then that type strategies and then it's like one ad, let's get everyone in. And gentlemen, it's such an odd thing where you can just say, right, okay, well look, there's so many people out there. There's males, females, there's different age groups, there's different desires, different wants, different everything. And it's just one ad for everybody. It's just crazy that companies are feeling about that. You wouldn't be able to get that late and we can talk about it. I like it at another time and you just wouldn't get that with direct mail. Like you just wouldn't get that because people can't afford to make those mistakes. That's what's in. Think. That's what it is. I think that's what it is.

Speaker 3: (33:43)
People can't afford to make those mistakes. If you've got 10,000, 15,000 pieces going out, that's a whole different kind of level of expenditure to, Oh, I could just gamble on some Facebook ads, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm not going to spend a fortune on one ad on Facebook and someone's going to like look at his concerns. ROI. It's like what's the damage you're actually doing and, and what's the, what's the way up of cost versus annoying knowing my audience. Right. I mean, it's like the, the, because it's so cheap right now, the mental barrier to be like, okay, well I can kind of get away with knowing a lot of people because it's nice and cheap, so I don't need to do any more sophisticated than this right now. How's the brand? You know, it has a negative impact, negative connotations towards your brand.

Speaker 3: (34:32)
Yeah, and I think it's a matter of time as well. As soon as those costs go up, it's like now we need to become more sophisticated. Now we might have to listen to actually what customers actually want as opposed to just chucking something out, which is, which is such a shame. I think that like it's, it's lazy and I think that the, the under current of damage you can do to your customer by just going that route means that it opens up this huge opportunity for a company to be like, let's start with genuine care, not advertising this, think about what the user experience actually is and advertise the bat. Cause if we, if we can build like let's say let's just start with five ads instead of one ad and just make sure we just tap into different people and different desires and different ones and just kind of make sure we're there and helpful for those moments and then bring them into funnels that are actually useful for those people.

Speaker 3: (35:22)
Not the one webinar for example, bring them into the webinars. They actually would like to see, treat them all differently because that's what they deserve. You should respect that. And then off the back of that, you've got funnels that are maybe not quite so complicated as they were before because they don't need to be because you know exactly what their needs are and it's just for me, it's like that's my, hopefully my wake up call for a lot of people. If people aren't doing this right now or listening to this or watching this video, I really would recommend that this is like, whilst it might not be a massive need today, if you're still advertising today, because you can still get away with it, give it a year. Facebook advertising will go up, YouTube advertising to go up and then we're going to be waiting for the next platform to see what we can do.

Speaker 3: (36:05)
But they're not going to come thick and fast because Facebook and Google and YouTube, all those three platforms that have been big for a while now you're gonna have to wait for another big player and Instagram still in only one newsfeed. It's only one place you can advertise this. There's just one linear line that you can advertise in and so there's only going, it's going to be limited space and it's, it's borrowing off Facebook. It uses the same targeting as well. So you're going to find that as soon as Facebook is popular and gets a more competitive, Instagram's gonna go the same way very quickly. So what's it going to end up before you, and I would highly encourage people to get control of their messaging now so they can actually build a really good brand and a really good relationship with our customers.

Speaker 3: (36:47)
Cause you get it right now, it doesn't matter what the costs become later on because you'll be the only ones left advertising. You'll be doing it much better than anybody else because the best ones always in that went in every platform. So, as a bit of a rant, actually, Oli, so I apologize for listeners there, but hopefully you can feel my passion behind this. And that's kind of what, where I think that things are moving and I think that's, if, if that's it, there's a takeaway that people need to take from this, that would be it. To be empathetic to people's needs and wants and desires and create ads exactly for that. And don't think a one size fits all approach for advertising. Definitely love it. Tom, look forward to catching you in the next one and a thank you to everybody who's been listening. [inaudible] cheers.

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