You are listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom Breeze here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.
Speaker 2: (00:14)
Hello everybody. It is another episode of path the purchase. And I am Tom Breeze and I'm with mr Oli Billson. Today we're going to be talking about engagement, getting your prospects and your customers engage with you as a brand and making sure they really kind of like taking the relationship and, and turn it into more customers, more clients for your business now Oli, first of all let's talk about why engagement. Well, briefly what is engagement from your perspective and what we're talking about in this particular podcast episode, but then also like why engagement is just so important. Cool. So we, we, we spoke, previously in a, in another episode about consumption and, and why, measuring consumption and how we could use certain tactics to increase consumption, especially specifically about free content, and, and how we could make people consume stuff so to move them down the funnel. Well, the fact is the, regardless of what type of marketing system or funnel you have, one of the, and that could be before they buy, or when they get to the first purchase or the second purchase of a third purchase or even, when there is nowhere else for them to ascend into, and there's not another engage a transaction for the to engage and when they become a client and the journey that they go through as a, as a customer or a member what we're talking about here is engagement and those specific data points, I suppose that you should be aware of that you can right now use, to, to really consider are people engaged.
Speaker 3: (02:12)
Because if they're not engaged, then it's going to be, it's going to prove difficult for us to further and deepen our relationship with them and they can also be indicators. So people that if you run a, an information marketing business or a membership business, they could actually fall off and they could indicate that somebody isn't going to continue with you in that, in their membership, which is a problem. So, it's, it's how do we use these data points of engagement to better our messaging, better our, contingencies, that, that improve our marketing overall.
Speaker 2: (02:58)
Cool. Okay. So, so let's say for example, someone's not engaged, what does that look like? Are they just like not opening emails? Is it that type of thing we're talking about here? Yeah, it most certainly could be and there is a slight overlap between consumption and engagement. The way that, I sort of determine this is where we can start looking at things like, if you run a membership site, for example, of when was, how many times have they logged into the membership site? Okay. How many times have they been in, so really we're looking at that engagement, of that, of the frequency of that, that login. So in fact, this kind of spews out a whole whole heap of things with engagement. And, and one of the, one of the things that I like to talk about a lot because it just got down, works for pretty much all businesses, RFM, recency, frequency and monetary.
Speaker 3: (04:02)
And if we just take a recency and frequency, just as two things that we can base engagement on, we can really, really start to understand where we can begin to use that within our marketing virtually every, every point. Rarely. So with a membership site, it could be number of logins so that's frequency. It could be the last login, which is more recent sale, of course it could be something like how many of you are doing the weekly blogging mail? How much, how long did they stay on the page for? So these are slight metrics that really begin for us to measure engagement more accurately. So if you're sending people to a blog article, a lot of people spend a lot of time on my content. How much time did they spend on the page? Now before we go any deeper? Like, data's great, but obviously if you're not gonna use it, then there's two schools of thought.
Speaker 3: (05:13)
You might be thinking this is super advanced. I don't really know how I'm going to start with this. The fact is, is that if you can begin to set up an automated system to manage, manage some of this engagement for you, you might not act on this data right away. You might decide to, you know, you just don't have the bandwidth to consider some of these contingencies and how you might bake them into your marketing. But the important thing is that you actually do something with it. And so you have to figure out what's relevant to your business you know, an example of a subscription or membership business factually, if you're not measuring many times somebody logged in, that's a problem. If you're not measuring how many subscription cycles they'd been through, that's a problem. You're not measuring how much of the content within, the membership site they're watching.
Speaker 3: (06:13)
That's a problem. So you have to think about these things and what's meaningful to me in my business. And so, you know, you've got to consider it. And, and so also in terms of engagement, you want to look at things like [inaudible] or even for your marketing, how many lead magnets that they downloaded. If you've got more than one lead magnet on your website or you've got offers that you put out to your list, how many of those reports have they downloaded what are those consecutive actions that somebody taken because arms with this information about engagement, these metrics, we can then be proactive so, you know, engagement might be a good, referrals might be a good sign of engagement. Management so if they're still engaged with you, they're more likely to refer you to other people. Why don't you start measuring how many referrals they have given.
Speaker 3: (07:12)
It's another indicator is another metric for you to consider. What do we do about that you know, and, and it could just be as basic as, how many web forms have they filled in? And you can begin to determine whether or not you build up the lead score, you know, of all these people that are taking these different actions and as I begin to increase their engagement with you suddenly begin to think, Hey, you know what? Now they're doing this. Maybe I should reach out with a telephone call. Or maybe I should just send a one off email that just says, Hey, I noticed that you've been opening, clicking around the website, spending some time watching the blog or reading the blog, watching the video. How can I help you? You know, and that's not going out to everybody that's just going out to that one person when they reach a particular threshold. So, you know, thinking about this, and I'm in a way, I'm probably probing and pushing and probing on more advanced, level of marketing when we're talking about this. But it should broaden your mind if you're listening to this, to, to how you can consider this in your business.
Speaker 2: (08:29)
Cool. Okay. I love this because it's like you, it's sometimes the hidden metrics that can be kind of like opened up to you and you can just display them and see them straight away. And I, and I love the idea of like automating some of the approaches as well. So should someone be displaying the, they're all kind of like, kind of going to a particular website and logging in frequently and the last time I logged in was very recent as well and they convert so you know, they're really engaged in what your content is about as you quite already say. Like if you could attribute some sort of lead scores, they as soon as they hit this particular number of lead school, all this level of heats of lead score or something like that, then that trip is this new email that goes out to them and it's like a bespoke email outside of the normal kind of like follow up sequence or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2: (09:17)
I love the idea of like having that in place because then you know all of the people that are displaying a lot of intent to be consuming your content and loving what you do, you could then send them like a particular type of quality qualification email so to speak. It'd be like, okay great. It looks like you're loving the content what would you say about other people who are thinking about buying this product or something along those lines? Cause it's a really loving it. The chances are by sending out that email, the point they were going to give you a rave review, for example, can pick on your website or maybe you can say, Hey look, we've seen that you are kind of like loving this content so far, which is great news would you be interested in our VIP program or our consultancy or whatever it is, might be the next step, the next logical opposite upsell you read through people at the right time with the right message. Is Willy what you're saying? And of course it's based on merit interaction with you. So no longer does it seem more automated, although it could be, it plays on, on that, that they, how progressive thy being with that, you know, in their intent. So finding out more information and this goes a lot deeper than they swatch me, give you really meaningful information, really kind of the real nuts and bolts and marks and information that you need to make that decision. So, you know, for us it could be, let me think, something like time base. So it could be time from when they opted in, just scheduling a call. Yeah. So that'd be the time from [inaudible] that call to actually making the first purchase. So again, it's giving you those little micro insights into where people are and how engaged they are based on their activities.
Speaker 3: (11:15)
And similarly, if you're in a business that gonna rely upon repeat transaction, meaning you might not make a great deal of money off the first transaction and you thrive off the lifetime value of some of the day, then the thing that you need to measure of course is time from that first purchase. So that's second purchase. And so if within a tolerance or a time period they don't engage in that second purchase, what are you gonna do about it now knowing that that engagement level is drops, you can then consider while they engaged in one transaction but within the given time period they haven't engaged in a second let sly reach out to them. Let's do something like you were just saying or active and you know, this stuff is the stuff that makes for me anyway, we'll go around.
Speaker 2: (12:11)
Yeah, I mentioned that because I imagine like, so running an agency myself, one thing that we've used in the past, I mean we still use those to a certain extent. We don't use it quite as much as we used to is like to have a member hub where we do like a client can login and I do like the spoke videos we've done for them, updates, anything that kind of like was important to share with them. Not only would you send it out straight by email, but we'd also have like a whole history of it inside the member health as well for them and we found the vast majority of people just as much easier just to email them straight off with the content straight away that have any anyway, but didn't really, it didn't need access to all the information all the time.
Speaker 2: (12:50)
But I like the idea of creating some sort of tool that's like almost like a reporting tool or some soreness could go for any businesses while I'm talking about it if you have like high end customers who are using a login to check on progress or whatever it might be and it's like there's a level of transparency within this tool, so they want to go and consume all the time. It's a hidden appeal, the time and checking out and wanting to find out all the information. I love the idea of being like, okay, look, if you're constantly logging in, maybe you're appropriate for our next like products for example. Maybe you would like a dedicated manager to be on call for you at anytime and it just costs this much per month for example, or whatever you might want at that point.
Speaker 2: (13:32)
It's kind of like, it could be a new strategy call to be like, Hey look, we've done really well in this PO place, but let's think about the next three months and let's talk about what we should be focusing on for the following three months. Could we build another funnel? Could there be a referral to a different agency, on cross sell? Could there be so much opportunity if you know, people are really engaged. Whereas if like they don't really listen to you that often. They're just paying their bill and they're getting on with it and they're liking it but they're not fully engaged and they'll say that's a problem, but it just means that probably not your sales message is going to fall on deaf ears probably at that point, right? You had that level of engagement and they'd be like, Oh look, cause we're in communication right now.
Speaker 2: (14:08)
Maybe this is going to be appropriate for you. And so that email that goes out, which like are you still interested in this? If you send that to your list, you're going to get a lot of people saying, yeah, then you can make a lot of sales. But it's not even sending out the email. You can notice what they're doing. And as a result pitch time, which I love the idea of that because I'm very much about like not pushing a message, but like when it's right for someone putting a message in front of them. Really clever strategy. I love that.
Speaker 3: (14:32)
Yeah. And I think, you know, for us, we use this all the time in lots of different businesses and it's the little hinges that swing big doors really and so, you know, looking at the time center that last purchase, the time since their last, the time since their last login, the time, even since their last inbound call, you know, they're all indicators of engagement, and, and allow you to do some pretty clever stuff. One of the things that I wanted to, give somebody that was, more of a, an overview of the way we, we, because a lot of this stuff is, is often set up in a bespoke nature to pretty much every different business we work with but what I wanted to do was give somebody something that they could go away with that would be applicable to literally everybody.
Speaker 3: (15:31)
And so I wanted to talk a little bit about how we tracking engagement within emails and we've kind of got a, a seven steps to this process really, in order to make this right, and work for pretty much everybody that's doing any kind of email marketing or has a database of, of people and, and the first is, is to consider who is actually engaged on the less. Now we use a tool to do this with, so this isn't something that you can go and necessarily get off the shelf, but something that you can build within this framework. You sound quite easily within most email autoresponders. So the first thing we do is we can set a who on our list of everybody who is engaged so what, what does that mean? What means that in the last 30 days they've opened or they clicked an email?
Speaker 3: (16:38)
Okay. So that's who do we consider to be engaged. The second is who, who has not engaged in, over 30 days. So you know that they are people that don't fall within that 30 day window. They fall outside of that 30 day window from 30 days to 60 days. So that people that you know, within 30, 60 days have not engaged in exactly the same frame. If they are not opened, have they not, clicks, et cetera, then who are the people that fall between 60 to 90 days? Okay. Again, consider that, so now we're bucketing Docker. We've got a list of 10,000 people. We've got 2000 people that are engaged. You know, we've got so many people that are between 30 to 60, 60 to 90, and then 19 a bolt. Now the 19 above are dangerous Pikes today because of course you can then start thinking, okay, I've got a bucket of people here that literally are not opening emails.
Speaker 3: (17:54)
They're not engaged. What do I need to do to get the rain gauge? And so we have a re-engagement campaign that we send to people, which is usually a high value premium type offer to get them to the point where, you know, this should with the subject line, with the nature of the offer, get them to collect open, whatever, whatever it is. We want to know if we can get them back engaged and if we, and if they do then they fall back into the age category. And if they don't, then they stay where they are. And if they stay where they offer it for a period of time, we get rid of them. Right? People off our list, which is not what a lot of people speak about, but those people are dangerous too because they skew all of your numbers, they skew your open rates, they skew your engagement rates.
Speaker 3: (18:49)
And so that book it of people, you know, you can actually tell them, Hey, quite frankly, I've sent you a number of emails over quite some time. I know it's that you just haven't been opening or clicking them. Therefore I must assume that this is like a delinquent account. You don't check it or you're just not interested in what I've got to send anymore. Therefore I'm not going to, I'm going to unsubscribe you myself and you can always get back on our list by going here. But until that time, I'm just not going to continue to bombard you with emails if I really, so, so once we'd gone through that process and we've established those, there's another section. The other section is they never engaged with us. So these are the people that got on our list. But if you did listen to the previous podcasts, those that got on our list, but they never consumed anything. Okay. And through engagement tracking, they've never actually done anything. So they never clicked. They've never opened. They opted in for the free report. They opted in for the checklist and they never opened anything yet. So these are the people that never opened anything. You want to get those people off your list.
Speaker 3: (20:11)
And then the other bucket of people are people that are new on our list but not yet engaged. Now this might be where you, you know, you set up some new advertising from a different lead source or a different ad set or a different campaign and you're doing something new with your advertising. What you want to know is that you might be getting leads, but who are new that haven't yet engaged? So these are people that haven't obviously consume stuff either. So this is a big, big thing because some lead sources lend themselves extremely well for lead generation, but actually don't lend themselves very well in terms of your offer, your promise, whatever it is, or the market to actually engage in the, just not engaging with it. Right? They were interested in it, but for whatever reason, they're not interested in actually engaging with you and consuming what you, you know, you wanted to give them. It's an interesting, well because I think that like if you're sending a lot of traffic from a new source of traffic or a new targeting option, whilst the lead generation costs might be low per lead, so low cost delayed, instead of waiting to see if they actually convert to a sale, like maybe it's like 15 to 30 days later for example, you want to get that data much earlier to be like well look like they're not going to convert because they're not even looking at the content we're sending out for free. So like you might get like a dollar lead for example, but whilst that lead cost is low, they're never going to buy anyway. So it's just to kind of at a low quality lead as well as cheap and some, I mean I know that I've had this conversation with clients where from YouTube he tends to get like people who have watched a video, it tends to be search traffic as well.
Speaker 2: (21:59)
So you get like really high quality search traffic who have also watched a video all the way through and then decided to convert. Once I list that audience is typically qualified itself so much more effectively than just like an image ad from a Google ad or a Facebook ad for example. And so you tend to find that, well, I definitely do when I work with a client and cost per acquisition from there ended up like happy to spend more money per lead with me because they know that the cost is that much more expensive. Typically it can be a little more expensive than Facebook, but the engagement rates are much higher, the sales rate is much higher. And so just the value, I skewed the data in terms of the value per lead and so that's just that. I just thought it was an interesting thing to talk about is like, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think for me, it also depends on the modality. I mean it depends on the media because, you know, again, we, we've spoken a lot, well I spoke a bit about mobile marketing and how that's playing a part now with delivering your message to people's mobile phones rather than sending them to email and things you know, just the same way is, if what you have to offer means that they have to consume it or engage with that offline, then you know, you need to consider that because it might well be where your advertising, you might be getting leads but they're just not engaging with it because it's not my preferred way of engaging with it. Right? So you need to consider that. So for me, the big question for people that are kind of [inaudible], while it's the thing to do, if you're listening to this, it's considered that, okay, these people fit into these different categories on my list.
Speaker 3: (23:43)
What the hell do I do to, to do something with them? Well, we, we've offered up the strategy, therefore people that you're going to ultimately send them that by the way, we're closing the, your account basically, you know, we're closing your email, but you can get back on the list if you want we, we need to carefully consider those people that are new on the molests but not engaging. You need to look at the reason why but also you can use things like remarketing here very effectively by loading that list of people that are not engaged or not, not actually doing anything to the Facebook audience, and then put together a, put them on a list to get them re engaged again and just use different modality of, getting them excited again, which is a, is a very good way of doing that.
Speaker 3: (24:33)
Now, none of the stuff I've spoken about in terms of email addresses, things like soft bounces, hard bounces, non-marketable emails, or that we never have done any delivery because you might be getting leads, but of course, the quality of the email addresses might be bouncing or whatever it is. So again, that from a list hygiene perspective is another consideration. But, but these are the things with an active list everybody should be doing. Even if you've got a small, small, small list, imagine what it would be like to see your less than all of its glory with seven the seven sections that showing you exactly why I think blah, you would immediately make some decisions on what you should or could do to re engage them based on, based on that information.
Speaker 2: (25:29)
It's really interesting and I think if people were to categorize their email lists by that, there's certainly other things that I'm thinking from an advertising perspective. Like if you use that to build a custom audience, for example, you're probably gonna get high quality list. And if you know that these people are actually engaging with your content because you know that that fits into a certain topic, that it's all, that we're probably more engaging could get more customers for you as well but I love the fact that like it, based on how people are interacting with you as a brand or a company, or business, I love the fact that like, if they're not engaging in the way that you have planned, that is contingency contingency plans in place, to try and get them to engage further but if not, and they're not, they're not going to engage.
Speaker 2: (26:12)
You can clean that. Let's get rid of those people. I believe that you know that you've got a much higher quality list. You probably or email delivery rates are going to get better, the chances of you getting higher delivery rates going to be stronger. Like you won't get penalized from like sending out lots of spam, so to speak like someone like confusions officers, allies for example. Now and imagine like everything just runs a lot smoother if you can just start cleaning that list and then knowing how to interact with that audience as well. And especially with that, I love that lead scoring idea as well. Should they be interacting, let's offer something that's going to be relevant and appropriate for people as well, which I think is very clever.
Speaker 3: (26:45)
Yeah. I mean, the beauty with this is that this can be set up as an automated system inside most platforms that you have so that you can automatically re-engage those people that are falling off you can purge those people off your list that are not interested or not engaged. So it doesn't skew things doesn't hamper your deliverability. And the thing that a lot of people don't know is that email providers like g-mail actually measure, monitor your engagement. And that will help your deliverability, it will create less spam and you'll be more trusted in the inbox if what you're sending is to people that are actually engaged because it's getting much higher opens than it would do. It was Oli, fantastic episode as a voice I love that engagement one. That's great. I'm gonna be using some of that stuff straight away cool. Cool. Thank you very much and look forward seeing next podcast episode. Thanks Tom. Speak saying.