You are listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom Breeze are here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.
Speaker 2: (00:14)
Hello everybody. Welcome to this episode of path to purchase I'm Oli Billson and I'm with Tom Breeze. How are you doing today, Tom? How the devil are, you could have a devil on either side. British, I love him very much. So. Yeah, very good. Loving it just being, going over a lot of end of year stuff cause it's, is it late November now coming into December and December I try and make a slightly Guata month. I'm like try and wrap up some projects we're working on and look into the new year and setting goals and stuff. So, yes, it's been an exciting time of me shut myself away without a team for a couple of days already. So that's been nice. And yeah, looking forward to that next year. Sweet we've been in exactly the same thing. We've got some strategic planning coming up soon, which I love. So, that's the next level though. You go kind of crazy on it.
Speaker 2: (01:11)
We have done a podcast on that. Yeah. So anybody who wants to listen into Allah, his strategic planning process, how to scale things super fast, go and check it out. So, what kind of talking about today, is actually something which, I, I had spoken to you briefly about with as been over in San Antonio in Texas recently. We were obviously both speaking at GICs info summit. And while we're over that, I actually took it for granted almost that sometimes we live in, in kind of the agency world as both of us do we see so many different things, that we're either implementing for clients. Things are working, things that are not working, and often you gravitate towards having a quite a high kind of, well, actually a very detailed conversation sometimes with people that you expect to be on a story on the same level as you.
Speaker 2: (02:20)
But, it kind of, getting down into the weeds really quick and, that, that kind of just brought me back to, we had a booth at the info summit there. And, I didn't spend a lot of time on the booth. I'm definitely not the person that you want on the booth I have might be, this is the reason why, you know, I have people coming up to me and talking to me about their business, their marketing and what they're doing right now and asking us, you know, how we could help them. And what I found myself, kind of talking to a lot of people about, frankly, even though this was an advanced conference for many people in the info space or thinking about in the info space was like the basics. You know, when it comes down to actually stuff that really works, I found myself really pulling back and trying to get people focused into what are the basics, what are the things that they should do before considering anything else.
Speaker 2: (03:23)
And I know one of the conversations we had with each of them was you all kind of, not necessarily framework or not even necessarily methodology, but just your overall approach to bringing people into the advertising world that you live in and how you start thinking about putting these types of campaigns together. And what are the key things rarely that when you really pull back, what are the things that many people often miss but should never be missed in order to really stop with advertising on any platform, Facebook, YouTube, AdWords, whatever it may be so I thought we'd, we talk about Ben about that really, of course. And I think you're completely right. I think that the world is, I said, well, the internet marketing or digital marketing world has changed a lot over the last three years. Not necessarily huge amount in terms of, in terms of like actually what is happening, but more a case of like the information overload scenario for the small business owner. So I know that just a few years ago, the strategies and techniques that were available would just about implement. Like you could just about if you're a small business owner, implementing yourself and you could use it and you could run with it and it would make, make, make a lot of sense but I know that if it comes to anything to do with the funnel these days, unless I keep it super simple, which is, there's definitely a strategy in that for sure there's a level where you can go to such a like nth degree, which would make your funnel even better all the time, but there's no chance of the small business owner, I don't believe anyway anymore.
Speaker 3: (05:01)
Of like learning everything they could do and put it into place. So there is becoming this like chasm of like people are just getting started and need to learn everything very quickly to the point where he's like, well, do you know, it might be just better off getting an agency to do this for me and, and work it that way. But then there might not be in the best place to actually get it implemented because they might not be the products completely nailed down just yet. So hiring a good agency becomes more and more tough. And there is like definitely I, I had a discussion that we should probably have at some point, which is like, it's become a lot more difficult I believe to get into kind of like running a business was as much more opportunity. It just means there's a lot more that you could potentially do.
Speaker 3: (05:39)
And so getting that focusing and that clarity is so important and that's why I try and take it back to basics and not necessarily look all the kind of the little things you could do, but more cases like saying what's right for your business right now and, and really form the strategy and the conversations you want to have. And then say, right, well how do I do that? How I have that conversation with those people at that particular time and really hit home so I turn them into a customer and can deliver what I do really effectively but I think there's so much information out there that people get, so kind of like a by it or that it's like they think they need to learn everything but they really don't. And, and so hopefully this will clear some of that up in this session. But, so what, what are the, you know, kind of the meaningful things that, you know, we should be talking about, I mean really at the beginning of the journey from the awareness aspect of, that you're trying to create with, with really any kind of advertising.
Speaker 3: (06:40)
Yeah. Okay. So let's take us back to like pre-internet days. So I think that always clears things up quite easily cause it takes it back to basics and also we all can understand it much more clearly. But also it's a case of like human beings haven't changed all that much, like our neuro pathways and stuff that pretty much still intact how they used to be although we do slightly have different behaviors when it comes to buying stuff online versus offline, but still are kind of like our brains still want to be satisfied, satisfied in certain ways before making a purchase. And so what I often talk about is like let's say for example, you had a store 50 years ago, and this is how business was done for thousands of years prior to that you would have three times a customer that you'd have one that's the window shopper outside looking in potentially could be interested in what you have to offer.
Speaker 3: (07:30)
Those people are standing outside pairing in because they're slightly interested. And even then going to have some people that come in the store and want to know more information about the products and services you potentially offer, want to test it out, know more about the features, the benefits and those people are actively engaged in what you're in, in the conversation of potentially buying a product or service. And then you get your third type of customer, which is the people that have made the decision to say, okay, yeah, cool. I've narrowed it down, here's the one I want and are basically just about to purchase from you. And those people want a bit more certainty that they're going to be buying something that's gonna be right for them, and wants to kind of like just be comfortable with their decision for whatever, for whatever reason.
Speaker 3: (08:12)
It's like, like whatever you think, whatever you imagine you're buying. Like if you're thinking of buying something, you might have a slight interest in a certain type of brand because of some advertising they've done in the past or whatever they may have done in the past. Then you're like, okay, let's check out the different products that Brandon got. Then you're like, right, that's the product I want be, might want to, if it's a piece of clothing or accessory moment, I actually tried on, you might want to kind of just see it like there and then and be like, yeah, okay cool. I'm happy now. This is actually what I wanted. Something. And then you go and buy and of course afterwards you've got this, making sure you negate all the buyer's remorse and make sure you can follow up. And we've talked about that in previous episodes as well.
Speaker 3: (08:51)
But I mean those three types of customers, the window shoppers, the install customers and the people that check checkouts are the ones we need to really be talking to. And the communication we have with each one of those types of customer needs to be different because you've got to grab the attention of the window shoppers. Whereas you've got to like build that certainty with the people that checkout and people that are in store who are looking for more information. Guess what? You've got to give them more information and demonstrate the value of each product or service that you've got but that's why I always liked to take it back to the basics and I always, kind of go back to like pre-internet type appetizers because I still think that they, they tapped in perfectly into the mindset of different people knew what worked.
Speaker 3: (09:32)
They did, they don't have the testing capability as we have today. And like literally we can actually measure every single movement someone makes, but they only found one, not houses, but like over hundreds of years they would have been like testing and tracking and seeing what works in the advertising fields across radio, TV, print advertising. And for me it's like they really were the pioneers of the advertising world. And there's a book I've been reading, again, probably for the fifth time, confessions of an advertising man, David Ogilvy. And, it's just some of that, some of the principles we've been going through in terms of like how to kind of create content or how to write a potent copy, for example, things like that. It's just been really kind of like just, Oh my God, it makes so much sense when you're going to get that down to basics.
Speaker 3: (10:17)
And I think that so often we have all these different strategies and techniques and these different schools that we could potentially use. Whereas really what you're doing with them today is you're speaking to one other person. Sure it might be behind a screen these days but really you're speaking to one of the people, you're communicating a message and you want to try and hit home as best as possible. And, so what I thought we could do is just go through a few bullet points that highlighted that I thought were really useful in terms of creating what I took it from this perspective of creating video scripts and just making sure we have some of these aspects in the scripts themselves. But, I think it'd be just a, people take a little nugget out of this, their own copy on their sales pages or the opt in pages or their website or whatever, or just kind of how they market their business.
Speaker 3: (11:00)
I think it could be really useful so that's cool with you. We'll go through some of that stuff. Yeah, sure. No, it sounds really good. Sounds really good. Okay, cool. Cool so I'm just gonna kind of pick ones out of, I've made loads of notes here, so I'm just gonna pick them out as we go but one thing that I think is, is a really good idea is being very clear on who it's for or what it's for so one of the examples they say is like, look, if your product is purely for mothers, make sure you've got that in your headline. That's the most important thing. Like make sure you shout that out. Obviously if it's more than just mothers and don't just shout out mothers cause your exclude those other people that could potentially buy your product. But if it's for off a person, make sure you've got that really early on in the headline, this is who it's for because it would just grab attention straight away because it was like, Oh wow this is recent for me, which is very important.
Speaker 3: (11:48)
Or if your product or service does something in particular like the example I've got is like it cures bladder weakness. For example. Again, you if you have an ad running in a newspaper in this scenario, but if you had an ad running to an audience that is looking for bad weakness and you say that in the first few seconds of your video saying, Hey, look, this is a perfect cure for that a weakness, let me tell you all about it. That's going to really grab the people that are actually interested in this stuff. And within seconds you've got their attention. And that's kind of like a really, really important place to start and I thought it's so obvious, but so many people don't do it. A number of times I go to a webpage where the headlines like a little bit ambiguous or Virgin Nerrick like if someone says something like, here's how you can make this much money over the next 72 hours.
Speaker 3: (12:33)
I'm like, Oh my God, I've seen it all before. I've heard it all before. There's nothing different in that whereas like if it immediately speaks to who I am or what I'm looking for, it just kind of breaks through all of that that'll be a good starting place to, to mention obviously man mentioned, promising a benefit of some sorts so again, this snore has got here, it like how women over 35 can look younger so again, you've called out women over 35, which is like those people, those women who are looking at you immediately grabbed their attention, can look younger. And again, if you are potentially interested in looking younger and you're a woman over 35, that's the headline within like half a split second. You read it and you're like, great, this is, this is for me and you want to read on, you've been lured into like, right.
Speaker 3: (13:19)
I want to now find out all the little tips and strategies you've got so I thought that again, like just making sure that it's really crystal clear and this is like, not like really clever persuasive copy. It's not like all of this. It's just like, Hey look, just keep it simple and this is what you need to say that have to be super creative about it all is simply just be Burberry direct. And they're like, here's what it does and they also, which I thought was a really a good thing that we don't put them on like enough. When I look at some of the videos we created, we do it well, but I think we could definitely, as soon as I've read this one I thought, Oh my God, we should do more of this. But it's, I'm just making sure you put on like the fact that something is new, like a new method, a new strategy, a new provement of some sorts, like new is people always looking for new ways, new methods, new strategies and things.
Speaker 3: (14:06)
And new as a, as a new, as a word is so powerful. And I know that we use it a lot, but probably we should be using even more free is a great one. Of course. That's kind of like a one that can be used quite a bit. I think it's overplayed quite a bit, especially in the internet marketing world, so to speak. But I'm free is always a, an easy one because people are like great as free and it's easy barrier to entry. And if your product or service you have a free offer, of course that helps. But I think the new is like a really, really powerful word that probably isn't used quite so much. But any product that people bring to the market, it is inevitably new as a new method, new strategy. Otherwise you wouldn't say same old humdrum strategy.
Speaker 3: (14:47)
Hey you go, do you want to? It's like getting something new to go with, is key there. So I thought that was a good one thing that they recommend and, and we don't do this much, really, I suppose it's because we work with a lot of personal brands, but then they often mentioned to get the brand name in the headline and I think that's, if it's going to be AutonoMe prints. And I think if you're a persona in your business and like your face is recognizable and they see it straight away and maybe you've got like an ad doesn't have to be said, but we'd like, typography like kinetic typography, your name comes up. Great. That's kind of like maybe that's done or we can have the brand and the background of an image or, or video. Something like further research I've done, on Melissa in my research I've carried out but more like research into different advertising methods and things.
Speaker 3: (15:35)
One thing I noticed was that it's a lot of brands that have their logo early on and a video ad means it kind of like can ruin the engagement that people have with that video just because as soon as people see a brand, they know it's not. And that's interesting because I think if it was an a paper and they saw the logo there or the brand has been mentioned, I that's fine. I think that like people would read that and think, okay, cool. Credibility maybe straight away. Whereas, I think if it's on a video, if the brand is there, I think people know it's an ad now and have like the defenses come up straight away, which starts a story. And then the brand is just like a scene on the calls in or Teesha in the background for example. And later on in the video you build that engagement, you build an emotional connection and the brand has mentioned, I think that's a, that can be a more powerful way of doing it.
Speaker 3: (16:25)
And there's a lot of research about brand uplift and lots of good stuff around that as well so I think that that might be different for print than it would be for video. And so we don't necessarily always recommend getting the actual brand and name in straight away. We'd say, look, let's, once it's kind of appropriate to then bring in the brand, bring it in as soon as possible because you obviously want to, cause if people leave the video, you still got a positive impression. But again, if you're the persona of the business, then you've already got that going anyway. So if there's personal brand, that's fine if you're appearing in the video but sometimes people can feel like the brand too early makes it feel like an ad that can lose engagement sometimes as well cool. As you lock in this stuff so far, this is awesome.
Speaker 3: (17:11)
It's little snippets I think people can use and find useful and so like they, one of the Ogilvy kind of like things about headlines and I'll leave it with this one as well as like is not to worry too much about the length of the headline. I think that one of his most successful ones, that he wrote was like 18 words and he said it was like 60 miles an hour. The loudest noise in the new rolls Royce comes from the electric electric clock and that's kind of a very famous advert the Ogilvy, made the, brought out for rolls Royce and Roosevelt's doesn't do all that much advertising of course but that one in particular works incredibly well and obviously pulling a lot of different aspects of that headline. But again, it's quite a long headline, but I think if you're mentioning the brand like they, they are and they're just using the word new, like the news rolls Royce and stuff and it's, and it's also kind of like easy and simple to understand the actual kind of a message behind the headline as well.
Speaker 3: (18:07)
I think that they along where you go sometimes the better. I don't, I've never kind of been shied away from any long headlines or any long intros to a video ad either. It doesn't have to be short and sharp all the time. I think some of the content can be shortened and, and kind of be like short paragraphs or short sentences can be really impactful sometimes as well. Easy to understand and follow along but a lot of the longer headlines it kind of a convention, a claim or like to a certain extent, but at the end of that longer headline, it's going to definitely lower people on to read the rest of the contents. And obviously that's an important step so I hope there's a few like tidbits on. I mean, I've found it incredibly valuable and I know that I create video all day long, so hopefully it's with everybody else. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (18:50)
And I'm on think kind of Ogilvy on advertising confessions, the confessions book as well if anybody, you know, not heard about those two books, I would highly endorse them going to check them out for sure. Because the people, you know, always speaking to me about kind of what's working right now, what can we know what's absolutely quote unquote killing it for people. And you know, the realities are the, the same tactic strategies, messaging that, that we use today are time tested and proven that direct response marketers have been doing forever. And so if it's something to do with Eugene Schwartz, if it's Robert, Kalia, you know, it's maybe not so old as those guys like Joe Sugarman and you know, all of these, all of these guys, have kind of got it right and we've been following, so, with those, those thoughts, while teaching for a long time.
Speaker 2: (20:07)
And, and thoughts. So, you know, often, taking a step back and thinking where all of this kind of comes from, it's definitely worth your time in, in doing it. And so I always suggest as well just kind of the people kind of, especially living in the digital age, just re-evaluating, recalibrating where they are going back in, just getting grounded, the gain on, on the fundamentals because you know, I was, we live in a, you know, a more complex, technology focused world of delivering marketing, different media. The, the, the basics still stayed the same. And in fact, it's a bit like marketing automation. You know, if you've got kind have got a chaotic business, chaotic messaging, and you have more automation to it, you've got automated chaos. So you know that that is a problem because you've got so much power now that if you haven't got that teamed up with the fundamentals, the basics, then you're never really able to, to dig in and, and actually get some of the results you could be getting. Of course.
Speaker 3: (21:27)
Yeah, precisely. And I think that like, go back to what we were speaking before about like these three different types of audiences, like the window shoppers, the install customers and the checkout customers I think what we spoke about so far like the ha, like the actual headline of the piece or the first few seconds of a video that really connects with those people that are the window shoppers like grabs their attention, make sure that like, Oh wow, okay, I've got to listen to what this is like. It called me out by like who I am or what the product actually does and it makes me, my ears pricked up and I'm ready to listen in and then it like, there's a few tips there about like creating the body of the contents and, what copy to, how to write for that copy here.
Speaker 3: (22:06)
I mean, I think it's going to be different videos that will be for, for, actual text on a page, for example, like in a, in a paper. But one of the first principles, overly talks about is the way to write any copy. And I believe like, great copywriters are great for a number of different reasons, but I don't think anyone's that far off and being a really good copywriter as long as I keep this principle in play, which is like, like what he recommends is potential at a dinner party and you've sat next to someone and they sit down and ask you the question of like, Hey look, I'm thinking of buying a new car for let's say for example, a, which would you recommend? And that setting there I think is perfect. They've asked a question in a friendly environment, and you've sort of answer the questions and obviously you've got to write it in a way that's going to be engaging, enthusiastic but not kind of like over the top.
Speaker 3: (23:00)
Not kind of like imagine you're still in communication with somebody at a dinner policy so it can be colloquial, it can be like you'd have to use these really long, big words or anything like that it's very much like to keep it simple and just talk about the benefits of that particular product or service based on the questions they're asking. And I think if people keep that in mind, they can't go that far wrong with voicing really powerful copy, especially when you know that like you're writing in a, in a colloquial way, you're writing in a way that you speak and it's, it's different for everybody else. And I think there's like a such a, you can have such an affinity with the actual customer because you're the person that likes doesn't sell. You're the person that like every day of the week you're the person that actually knows your products inside out.
Speaker 3: (23:41)
Your services are down and say, look, here's, here's actually what we do. And if you have to sit down next to somebody at a dinner party, I think it frames and sets the scene for writing really good copy and then if you've, if you've thought of it like that before, I'm sure you have, but like writing copy, I find it sometimes when I think, Oh, I've gotta be really persuasive. What, I've already write this in a really intelligent way. All right, the worst copy ever when I'm just like, actually, do you know what, this isn't right for everybody and I'm just going to talk plainly and speak really clearly to the people that are right for, I find the conversion rates like go through the roof and people love the fact that there was that honesty with it and I know that in some of the like, like this is not for these people is normally my favorite part because I am quite easily disqualify the right or the wrong people, if that makes sense. And that also strengthens the people that are about to buy as well. So now I think that you'd think there's, as people are listening to this, the Angaza we're talking about copy and talking about the fundamentals is that, you know, you, some people are like natural, doing some things. Some people are natural salespeople and so there's a very big difference between somebody that societal person or professional sales person and somebody that tries to sell, had lots of sales people that have worked for me. And there's always the distinction. You're either a salesperson or you, somebody that tries to sell. Now the truth is when it comes to copying, comes down to messaging and comes down to some of the things you're talking about, there is copy. Some people can sit down and they can, without really any resources or raw material around them. Sit down and write a very compelling, persuasive, piece to influence people to do what they want them to do.
Speaker 2: (25:37)
And again, with very little research into what they are writing about, they can immediately, how do an N most people, copy and messaging, I mean, it's fairly formulaic it is a formula like you were just talking about zap it is making sure that we are doing the basics you know, for me, my analogy of, of bringing this back to basics is market message, media, you know, and, and the results triangle, you know, Dan Kennedy has been, you know, through magnetic marketing talks about forever so, you know, establishing a market and then looking at the alignment of the message to that market, and the right delivery platform, the right media to go out and get it. And still to this day, you know, this stuff is a revolutionary but to some people that are maybe a steps beyond lab is says recalibrate yourself. Bring yourself back to get some three by five cards on a table, index cards on a table, right out, you know, all of the benefits. Write out all of the objections, the reasons why they won't buy, you know, and, and start, and start really digging into the basics so we shouldn't have.
Speaker 3: (27:14)
Well do you know what I think like pulling on what you just mentioned there, if you can write down all the benefits, you can write down all the reasons why someone wouldn't buy. Sometimes people kind of like try and write copy to combat that and handle those objections up front. And I think that obviously you want to do that. You want to kind of like make sure you cover that because that's a really important part of the actual sales process and it's kind of like so much kind of stuff that you can do around that, which is like you can kind of obviously like mention a slight weakness and then just like frame it up with most positive aspects of that as well. So like if you're a restaurant and you're a small restaurant, whilst you're small and you're cozy, you also, that's what brings the perfect environment.
Speaker 3: (27:53)
So that restaurant, if you phrase it in a way that kind of like makes the small, like the small, slight drawback, a real big positive, then you can play it in that way and it makes a big difference and I think that, often if you do have a big drawback, instead of spending time trying to figure out how to sell it, still some of are better off to go about going to the backs of the products and thinking, well how do I change this? How do I actually make this not a problem mate and conquer that? That focus there can be really like much easier because you've got a great product or great service man, the advertising becomes easier, it just does and that always becomes easier. But, one of the things I think is really interesting and maybe even another conversation for another time as well, is that the fact that Ogilvy and Claude Hopkins and all these great advertisers from the past, all kind of like everybody wants that number one, that many great awards as such.
Speaker 3: (28:43)
I'd never kind of like, like they want a fair share because they were so great but they never wrote a copy to win the awards and never did it for that kind of like self indulgent kind of like process because most of the, as they used to create, didn't draw attention to themselves. They just did the job of selling the down products really effectively. And I think that's a really interesting area to focus on because that's what they used to focus on for print advertising. And I know that anytime now where a brand brings out a really clever video, it can be shared a lot and that wouldn't have happened in the past so there's a really clever story. It has a Woody clever creative behind a video. It tends to get that sharing aspect cause a lot of brand awareness and if it does a relatively good job of selling as well, it has a double impact.
Speaker 3: (29:26)
So you can be really creative, get everyone to share it and love it, for example, build that brand and then also take sales from that process as well. So I think maybe things have changed since the birth of media and social media and being able to kind of like content a lot more freely but it's still really interesting because they are very much like in the mindset of like write copy that converts, don't necessarily look to win awards don't necessarily have to go and entertain anybody but maybe with the bird, not necessarily even with TV but more like the birth of online where people can share, people can comment, people can kind of turn that one piece of content into kind of like something else as well, like more of a discussion points I wonder what the impact would be if you were to create like really heavy creative content that also sells really effectively.
Speaker 3: (30:16)
Because I think that if you could combine those two and get that kind of like a viral aspects of the ad itself, I mentioned that you can do incredibly well because we've created ads in the past that have been shared around because it's been a really good strategy or what a good technique. I know that some of the ads that I've created for YouTube stuff, we've had so many shares on Facebook and things and it has kind of like now we've stopped the advertising and the video keeps on getting shared around and stuff. That's always really interesting to see that content still being distributed everywhere by other people but I think that would be one of the things that has changed a lot more recently and the fact that you can do clever stuff around remarketing. So whilst they were very much keen on like trying to display everything about our products and getting that sale straight away for obvious reasons, the fact that they can't come for want of a better word, chase people on the internet with ads nowadays, it can be more a case of like you create the ad, build the relationship, not necessarily looking for that transaction up front because you know that you're building that relationship to follow up with remarketing.
Speaker 3: (31:11)
So some, some interesting distinctions there from past to present but I still think the principles at play of like not over complicating things, still thinking about speaking to someone one to one, given the good advice, giving good sales copy, not thinking that has to be done by some genius or expert and just being more honesty and integrity is part of this whole CLI. I think that, it's just been really fascinating to look at what was working, what did work incredibly well, what continues to work incredibly well. Go back to the basics, but also mixing in with the, the potential that we have with today's technology is, is another really interesting conversation. Awesome. Thanks Tom. It's been great and look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Not only thanks mate.