Speaker 1: (00:00)
You're listening to path to purchase a podcast for passionate and committed business owners and marketers, Oli Billson and Tom breeze are here to give you the tools and knowledge you need to grow your business and take decisive action. Welcome to the episode.

Speaker 2: (00:15)
Hi Oli. How are you doing? I am good. How are you? Yeah, very good okay, cool. So today we're going to talk about which I know that is your expert, subjects, is all about scaling personal attention, to increase engagement, increase sales, increase profits, and, and really run much more effective campaigns in your business so I'm, I have a load of questions to get started with very soon, but do want to give us a bit of an overview to what you actually mean by, by personal attention, I suppose when it comes to any marketing efforts.

Speaker 3: (00:49)
Cool. Well, it seems like everybody wants your attention these days, doesn't it? And, you know, with more marketing messages that we, that we face and see every day, on, you know, lots of different social media channels, the competition for your attention in your inbox you know, that becomes even more needs and requirements to think a little bit deeper as a marketer how we can effectively reach people and how we can compel people to take some sort of action or to compel people to take a, certainly a step towards you if, if that is what your intention is, which is for most people so regardless whether you're generating a new leads, if you're looking at driving more people through your funnel, all trying to get existing customers to come back to you or to reactivate existing customers, this kind of notion of scaling, personal attention is really very relevant to every aspect of all the top of funnel and bottom of funnel stuff that we, we often talk about really.

Speaker 2: (02:11)
Okay. Cool. So when you say personal attention, does that mean you giving your potential customers personal attention or do you mean, the customers are giving you their personal attention?

Speaker 3: (02:24)
Yeah, sure. So really it's, it's kind of both in both regards really because what you're really looking for is to try and reach your ideal, lead and prospect or customer at the ideal time, based upon generally that behavior and so, you know, if you know that somebody has reached a certain tolerance or, achieved a certain goal within your marketing system or, marketing process, then you want to, you know, essentially reach out to that person and present them with another message to get them to the next step or at least appreciate the step that they've just taken. And now your, the, that now you're acting on, on their action. So people often, are necessarily, haven't coined the term, but, you know, I, I say this quite a lot for, for every, for every inaction that is a reaction, meaning that you're building some levels of contingencies into your marketing to make sure that you're keeping people on of the critical path that you want. Well, actually that's very true for people that are not taking the steps that you want them to take. But really when it comes to scaling personal attention, what you're actually doing is also, taking taken into consideration the action that they did take, and doing something with that information whatever that may be. So, so it's like if I can give you some scenarios then, so let's say for example, I might be on your email list, but I haven't kind of open the email for the last six weeks or something and you sent me five or six emails in that time and haven't opened any of them. Then you might send another one.

Speaker 3: (04:21)
Right? Well, if I open it, you'll know that information on me. If I were to click a link, you'll know that information on man, if I visit certain pages and your website and other information and therefore based on behavior, your response back in different ways. Is that kind of what you're saying? It can definitely be based around recency it can also be based around frequency and it comes sometimes your base around, monetary as well. So if, if anybody listening to this is familiar with the RFM principles, that is exactly what they are and, and really, RFM is often, talks about in terms of buying behavior in terms of how recent, how frequent and how much money people spend. And then of course, you know, you can do lots of clever things with your marketing based on that information, but you can also apply those principles to what's going on within your marketing system. As far as, as you just said, how many times have they logged into my member site? How much of the video did they watch when they do?

Speaker 3: (05:28)
Do you know they do take an action towards you, how do we continue the story with them and how do we continue to take their retention and engage them further to, and compel them to take the step that we want them to. So, it really can be done to extremely subtly, and there can be some very good, you know, it's a very effective ways of doing this. And there's some very, there's some very simple examples of this and there's some very advanced examples of this so we can probably cover both those we venture into this, into the podcast.

Speaker 2: (06:11)
Yeah, cause I, I can, I can appreciate, whenever I've signed up to any kind of like webinar service, which is kind of got an evergreen aspects of the webinar service, typically they'll have, kind of the option to follow up with people based on did they attend the webinar or not? Did they stay for more than 20 minutes or do they stay for sale in the last 20 minutes or something? Did they kind of, you, so you have all these taxes on people based on their behavior and it means that they give you, that gives you the perfect option with tagging through different CRMs as to be like, okay, well great. If they've maybe not turned up to the webinar, how are we going to treat that person and how we can follow up with that person and we make it more dynamic to their behavior. Then of course it feels more personal. And I presume that's where we're going with this whole podcast episode, right? We're going to go look into how we can do that or maybe kind of different strategies we can put in place.

Speaker 3: (07:05)
Yeah, sure. I mean, there may be some that we talk about that people have never heard of before, which maybe they didn't even think was possible but may have been part of and, and we're lucky to be in a, an exciting time right now where we can really leverage that technology and those platforms to make it possible for any small business to, to profit from, the, the, they're sort of thinking and and the tools that are available. So, so there really is, the, the, the, the, there are opportunities now for you to do some pretty crazy and interesting things. You mentioned something, which I'll go into in a few moments, but what you just mentioned there, which is quite interesting because you mentioned the words behavior and human behavior. I'm dynamic as well. And really what you're trying to do is marry all those three things together, create a dynamic humanized if that's a, if that's a term, behavioral lads, marketing, allows us to change the conversation that's going on based upon the actions that that person personally is taking.

Speaker 3: (08:20)
Essentially as people become more engaged with you, you start to see that you're taking more of their retention because generally when people start taking steps towards you, they start opening emails, they start clicking on the links, they start, filling in more web forms. They'd start downloading more PDFs they are, they make, they do three or four inbound calls to your support team. All of these things are very relevant as far as, that, that attention that you're having for that individual and you can then lean on that attention to start making the right offers at the right time in a humanized way. Because the truth is, we spoke about this before, you know, with all of the technology that's, that's available to us. So many people get hung up in creating, you know, these, these vast autoresponder campaigns that, that really are very linear and don't really talk very directly to the, to the, to the, to the customers.

Speaker 3: (09:30)
They don't really respect the actions that they have or haven't taken and we've spoken in previous episodes about profiling your audience and how to get the right message to market match, but this is really about kind of understanding where they are and why you're trying to take them to, along that journey. How you can take their attention to exceed that process, to, to, to, to really maximize the opportunity of that attention that somebody is giving you. Because that's really the most valuable thing that you can have for anybody, that they giving you their attention. And when you can do that in a dynamic way and an automated way. So even though we talk about, you know, creating a humor, human dynamic campaigns, these could be automated and it's something that's something we'll do forget as well in that general communications before we get too deep into this subject that they just don't make it. That human, that coffee isn't, isn't written as if we're speaking to somebody and it just doesn't really, it just doesn't really lend itself very well to create a great relationship that you try to have with somebody, especially if you're trying to get their attention, which is what we're, what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2: (10:48)
Excellent. Okay. So is there a particular action point here? So say for example, you listen to this podcast, you're thinking, okay, cool. I get the idea that based on people's behaviors to, our marketing efforts, if, if they take certain action like they buy, we might say, right, the worst offer, an upsell. If they don't buy a mile for down sell. That might be a simple one. For example, is there one that you think, right, if everyone just did this type of campaign, this one here that you can talk about now, they would immediately get a better result with their, with their marketing efforts. Is there something that you say, right, this is a standard one we'll typically implement because it just works every single time or other ones you can give examples where it's like this has worked really well as well.

Speaker 3: (11:31)
Sure. Well I think that before we gone to dive into maybe some of the tactics we've, you know, I've intimated that I'm going to go into that, which I will, but before you kind of get into that, what you really need to try and have some kind of tracking mechanism that's going to look at everything that the whole canvas or you know, something 360 degrees in terms of your less people on your database that houses whether or not they are engaged that's really the first place we start with this kind of thinking because what we really want to understand this, let's put together a kind of a, an engagement tracking, tracking mechanism to know whether or not they have opened an email in the last 30 days or 90 days or 180 days. Because when people go past some of those milestones, getting their attention, let alone scaling, it becomes even more difficult so that you then go and employ beyond that point of putting that engagement tracking, into place, is a really a second phase to what we're talking about here.

Speaker 3: (12:39)
First of all, you really need to know of those people that I've got on my database or of those people that I'm generating leads for today through YouTube, through Facebook, through Google, whatever it may be. Are they engaging? Are they taking, are they clicking on the links and what we do, we do this quite effectively through an engagement tracking campaign that we build with inside our CRM of choices, infusion soft, but other platforms make this very possible as well like drip, like active campaign like HubSpot, in some way form. There is a way to track that level of engagement. And what we do is we essentially reset the campaign, what they take an action. So until they don't take it actually they carry down the path of looking at the timeline of looking at when did they last do something and they'll just drop based on that time to different sequences so that we'll know where they sit.

Speaker 3: (13:42)
And is that something that we need to re engage and is it something that we need to clean up? E once they get past 180 days and they haven't engaged with anything that we've done, regardless of what we've done, should we be considering putting them into like our secondary, you know, also respond to service or just taking them off our list completely or maybe just taking them off our list, but just uploading them maybe to a custom audience so that then we can do normal lead generation to them because they're just not responding. And the thing is with this is that it starts, it begins for you to start questioning. Well, if I mainly communicating through email and people aren't opening my emails, then quickly you're going to start getting people off your list because you haven't got any of the method or media to use to actually engage them.

Speaker 3: (14:28)
So if you're not using text messages, if you're not using remarketing, if you're not doing outbound calls, if you're not tracking inbound calls, you're not doing direct mail. All of those things collectively increase that engagement and helps scale personal attention to get people back on track. The fact is though, we have a lot of people that are just doing email and they're just using stout, you know, one way to communicate with people what media, it becomes more difficult to scale personal attempt to because of course it's that much harder to just keep that engagement through one channel. So you really need to kind of mix that up to be able to take advantage of all these things together. And obviously we'd want you, do you know how effective remarketing can be and actually getting their attention. And that's exactly the same thing we're talking about here is kind of, you know, I know we're talking about this kind of foundational campaign, but actually feel for what you do, it's so relevant to getting their attention, whether it's that YouTube ad, which obviously you could talk about as well. In fact times we'd be interested to get your take on, you know, I coined that term of scaling personal attention, but how, how do you see that? Because you, you know, you run so much traffic through the agency I for lots of different clients and really that's what under the media that you're using. Yeah, it's advertising media that they may have originally come from, but you're actually getting their attention to get, I mean, how important is that that you kind of keep that going I suppose?

Speaker 2: (15:57)
Yeah, exactly. I think that like we get pulled in a lot when it comes to any launch that a client might be doing because they know that if there's a send out an email like throughout the next kind of like a two weeks prior to a big launch, just to warm them up a little bit, they know, they know they might hit a maximum 30 to 40% of that list are people actually who engage with an email, let alone actually click to go back to the site. So that's just an open rate so to speak and so what we tend to find is like when it's in that scenario where someone's kind of like, may have not kind of like, am I going to spam all the time or they've got like a certain type of inbox that filters out marketing messages and so they don't get read.

Speaker 2: (16:35)
So often we will do it right. We always kind of like say, Oh, we don't want to receive that as Prince a difference on the folder, for example. So I can just concentrate on my five important emails every day, when that happens, what we can do is upload the list to Google through Google match or you can upload it through Facebook as well of course and when you do that, you can run ads directly to those email lists or whatever other information you have as well on Google it's mainly email but with Facebook I know that you can do different, data points as well, so you can do things, phone numbers and addresses as well as thinkers and lots of good stuff but email is the main one that's typically used and it means that then, it is a good match and it typically is a very good match.

Speaker 2: (17:19)
It means you can run ads directly to that list and that can be another great way. So if they visit a certain page on your website and I'm not sure how well that would kind of like connect with something like infusion soft and you'll get to tell me about this, but say for example, we run an ad to go, so a blog post or a date or a landing page that's rich full of content that talks about the upcoming launch. Then at that point, I wonder if you can actually have a tag to say, right, if that hits that a landing page, then it tags back inside of the Infusionsoft or whatever CRM you're using because that would be a very different way of getting in front of that audience without having to be in their email box all the time.

Speaker 2: (18:02)
But you know, that, okay, our message is still resonating with them. It's just, they're not, they're not just checking that email, that media or of an email isn't working as well as if I actually run the ad strength, their newsfeed or on Facebook, or if it was on, YouTube, it'd be a video or if it was on a Google display network, it would be an image ad or a video or a text ad but immediately they'll kind of, they're seeing you all over the place and it's like, like on the presence across the whole internet, but at the same time, in a very eloquent way. So it's not kind of bombarding people. It's more cases, like once they have decided to go to that landing page, we can take them off, or stop advertising to them. We can kind of exclude them from any advertising. So you know, that great, I've paid for that engagement for that person that might have cost me two to 10 cents, for example. But now I know that very engaged again because if we just hit them up with a different type of media, so yes, it's going to be more expensive than a free email shot. But obviously if you're sending out lots of emails that are not connecting, then you're not, it's not going anywhere anyway and you're probably getting penalized for future emails that you send anyway one of the things I will ask you, which might be a question that some people are thinking about because Google match, although it hasn't been around for some time and people gotten it kinda got a bit excited about Google match, when it first kind of came in because of the success people are having with, with Facebook audiences if I'm right in saying, how, how does that differ? I mean, what are the abs it might be worth, I mean, I know this, but for people listening, you know, what ads can you run on the Azure? You've got Google match audience as you've uploaded your Les with emails can you run display network advertising? Could you run, in stream ads? Could you run pre-roll apps based on that information? How does it work? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2: (19:59)
So, you can basically run any type of ad that is available to you on AdWords. So, so that means really, you could even run a Gmail ad and go directly to someone's Gmail inbox and be there as an ad in their inbox and it looks like an email. And then when you click on it, it can open like a light box inside that Gmail account and it kind of play a video, have an image and have it all have text so you can have a real rich engagement. Again, even without them going to your website. And now if they were to watch your video, if you had a video on a Gmail ad, then you could even segment those people into another remarks list so you can be really clever about how you can use it but yeah, the traditional ones are going to be text or image ads that will be displayed across the whole Google display network.

Speaker 2: (20:47)
And you can go to literally any website out there that has display network ads, which basically means as long as someone's online, they're probably going to see that ad at some point, unless they exclusively go to websites that don't show the Google display network. But that's something like 88% of websites out there. So it'd be very unlikely they wouldn't see your ad as long as you're paying the right sort of money to get in front of those people but it's a very targeted list because there's people that already know you because they're on your list already unless you bought that list of course, but they already know who you are and showing an ad to them isn't likely to resonate with them. Especially if you use a brand that they're familiar with, either that your logo or a picture of you that's likely to, it could, kind of resonate very well.

Speaker 2: (21:30)
You can also use the video as well on the Google display network. So you can have like autoplay videos that happen on the right hand side, in those same boxes where you'd normally see the Google, Google ads as well so in all those places you can advertise with text ads, image ads, video ads. Likewise on YouTube you can run in stream ads purely to those people. It doesn't matter what video they watching. It could be a cat video for example, but you can be in front of them again and the great thing is as soon as the level of engagement, you can segment them and exclude them from your advertising efforts, especially if they've gone to your website. Cause if hits as soon as they hit your website, if they can then be tagged, inside of infusion soft, then it's great.

Speaker 2: (22:12)
We know that they're back in the game so to speak. We know they're actually, they're interested, they're not opening an email. Sure. But we know that are still interested. So you made them run ads specifically to the offer starts off because they're on your list. They know you've got a launch coming up. Maybe if they want to register for a webinar that's slightly different, so you would send them straight to the webinar if you had the products there and then you know, it's a warm list, especially if you took your, kind of like your customer list as opposed to your whole database. And then you can really run very targeted offers purely to those people. That would be very, very powerful so across AdWords and YouTube can get everywhere, like amazingly and on Facebook as well. You can get people's news feeds or you could use the network as well to push out into different places as well. So it's, if email isn't working, advertising can definitely get in front of your audience and if someone doesn't go online, yeah. Get kind of, get people kind of excited about that because you know, a lot of people think that, you know, they've got a list that they perhaps haven't been, nurturing maybe in the right way. And sometimes when I say that, it's just that they're not sending to that list enough this is the thing, really with scaling personal attention is that you can progressive lens, that's another kind of key word day. You can progressively move people down the line and as you begin to get more of that retention, so the message can start to change in those adverts that you're ruling that's appropriate to where they actually are in the decision or buying process. And of course that decision of buying price, it could be as simple as the effects of remarketing advertising that Facebook, that face that, that Amazon serve on, around needs that to get you to get back to though that particular book because it knows that it was a book.

Speaker 3: (24:12)
It could be as short as that, but in longer cycles or longer marketing campaigns where there may be multiple steps or the lead to buy time is a long gated, this, this notion of scaling personal attention is, is really effective. One of the things that you mentioned was something that we actually do. In fact, it was one of the advanced things I was gonna talk about, which was, you know, sometimes, people wonder why when they hit a website or they, you know, they get an email and they get to a website, what if it may day, then all of a sudden like half an hour later, they just got like a kind of, quite a broad email from the company or it might be a very specific, and when I say broad email but sounds as if we're not doing our job properly, but there might be a reason why that, that there might be, have some brands association to it rather than being that kind of a spooky, we know you went to this page type of thing. It might be like a, a survey.

Speaker 3: (25:18)
It's a bit of a broader message, but it's still, yeah. Or it could be a case study to drive them back to a blog or it could be, you know, you may, yeah, it could, it could be anything really could be a piece of content it could be under the download and then if they engage with that and the back on track and say the story continues, but that, that's what we call page triggers and those page triggers, are very, very effective in knowing if somebody got to that page, then we can then trigger an email, off to, to, to, to start the conversation over again or to continue the conversation and to not just my geekiness like how does that work? Is it based on an IP address and based on the front of that person's in your database already?

Speaker 3: (26:10)
It can depend on a number of different things you have to have, their information in your email provider. So it will say around system and they, some of them deal with this differently, most of them don't have it built in a standard part of the box as part of that package. It's often provided by a third party with infusion soft. It's with plus this, they have a page trigger function with the order autoresponder services, or systems they already know this and so they can track all of the different pages that you've been on, on, on, on a site, the moment that you've clicked through to, that, that site so it can be quite interesting cause you've essentially like kind of cooked them rarely in that regard and you can actually see infusions or people don't always know this many visions office space. If you can see all of the web pages that they've been on one side, then you can see all the web pages that had been, it's just difficult to take action on that. And that's why plus this kind of comes in.

Speaker 2: (27:17)
What I really like about that is that like you could have a scenario whereby say for example, you've just sold your first product to a customer and it might be a short product, might be like half an hour to go through it or something like that. And either that's like a, like a PDF on a websites or at least content on each page. Or maybe it's like a video series. And then there's lost videos like a thank you video for taking part and kind of actually getting to that point in the training for example, I really liked the idea of, of like as soon as that's been completed and someone gets to that page, you've identified if you are using infusion soft or plus this, I love the idea of like then grabbing that kind of person, knowing they're in a certain category within your, within your kind of like database and then either emailing them to say, Hey, thanks so much.

Speaker 2: (28:07)
I'm really glad you're getting it you're kind of using this training and you're one of the, you know, one of the few that actually execute and get stuff done if you're ready to take the next step, there's another, and this perfect way of upselling as opposed to selling earlier on. Maybe like deliver first give, give value and then reiterate an upsell at that point does that information from plus this, can that be fed automatically? I know there's like things like SyncSumo that might be able to do it, but it can that information be sent back to someone like Facebook so that you can have this similar where they finish the course, it gets updated into, well I suppose you could do it through, through remarketing pixel I suppose, but can you do it from a, from a list, Sophie for example, they didn't have page, I did some sort of other action. You had like a phone call with them or something along those lines. And then that kind of behavior then that can feed back on automatically into a remarketing list.

Speaker 3: (29:04)
Yeah, definitely. And another thing with this is not necessarily just about page triggers and how they how they can work but as you said in terms of scaling that attention is what else could we use? Like what else could you trigger? And that kind of leads me on to probably the, one of the, one of the key things we found to be very helpful in triggering things based on different tolerance is different, different attention levels. If we want, you know, if we, if we were looking at it kind of a thermometer scale, as they were getting hotter and how do we know and what do we do to get them, you know, to the point where you know that they're all the way at the top and that they're now ripe for picking in fact, in fact, my, my analogy of this is actually is different and I'm going to try and get it right because I always get this wrong.

Speaker 3: (30:05)
I'm going to try and get it right for once in my life. I once in your life, we used to use before we use Infusionsoft and other tools that we use now we use the program for, for the only, for the Mac, a CRM program called daylight now, daylight, is kind of out of the box has to be customized, in a, in a lot of ways, bit like FileMaker if anybody's ever used that, right or like an access database or something. Anyway, I'm good. But yeah, carry on. Yes, I'll be a very, very light time may, I mean it's simple.

Speaker 3: (30:48)
This program, was a CRM system and it had sales pipeline management and we took some consulting from a company in the state to help to set it up nothing like some of these programs you've got today. We actually had to pay somebody to come in and figure some of that out. And what I really liked was one of the things that, they spoke about, we kind of apply part of this now to what I'm going to talk about in a few moments, kind of lead scoring aspect. And there's the idea of seeding. So somebody is a kind of one, two or three, they're in the seedling stage, meaning you know that they're right at the beginning of that journey. And we can score them as either a one, two or three. So they're in the category of seeding and it's one, two, or three, Deb simple.

Speaker 3: (31:41)
And the idea is, is that you move them forward to the next step as they become more engaged with you. You might have phone conversations. They, you know, now we would talk about that with new technology, like were they opening email where they looking lanes, where they fill in forms, where they attending webinars, whatever sort of seeding, then you would have growing, which would be the next category, which would be four, five and six. So, you know, where are they in that journey? You know, and obviously they've got to get to the top to step into the next category really. And this, this, you know, as I start to explain the next stage, and you can see now how if we were doing this in an automated way, we could begin to score and automatically move people at these different levels. So the next step after growing, is, right.

Speaker 3: (32:35)
So now they, they sort of ripe, and they're sort of, you know, that they've really nearly at the top of where you want them to be. I'm probably gonna mess my numbers up now so they were seven and eight. Okay. That's where they got to. And so in this stage, again, we're really nearly at the point where they are, you know, gonna buy or they're going to take some further action. So you've probably had multiple, you've probably been, you know, in my, in my world where we live now, they've opened lots of emails. They've clipped lots of links, they've attended the, the, the mandatory comes sales presentation. They've had that qualification call online. They have their diagnostic or whatever it may be and now we move them from right to fruit and when they're at fruit, they're ready. And, when they're free, they're a nine or 10, and we are looking at closing them.

Speaker 3: (33:37)
And that kind of spectrum that gives, gives you an idea of the life cycle that somebody can go through as you begin to scale that personal attention and, and using that, those sort of analogy of from seedling to fruit, as, as a sliding scale really of where somebody is and of course they can go back the other way so you can have a negative, you know, you're not scaling them. You're D scaling so your, you're, you're, they've taken the negative action, you know, so that could be if you were running a business where you had regular coaching calls, they don't attend the coaching call and then you try and research a live coaching calls and they don't attend that warm. Or it could be in a sales situation where, you know, they filled in the forms, they attended the webinar, you do an outbound call and you can't get hold of them.

Speaker 3: (34:29)
You try three times. We've always smelled one, two and three. You can't get through to them. Or it might be that you do get through to them and they're thinking, get over and we call it Tio. When they're in the Tio stage, you can't, then you know you, you say that if they start in the Tio stage here, if they go past 60 days, they go back through the way back down to seeding again because they're not actually making a decision. So, that kind of gives you an idea. And we use that in lead scoring people so that we can react to the actions that they have taken and react to the inactions, as well. And in those situations in regards to what was all about here to begin scaling that, that, that attention, by understanding what steps they took and moving further towards where we want them to be.

Speaker 2: (35:26)
Yeah, I thought was really interesting about that. It's a, I think that you could like that sounds incredibly advanced. Now imagine that when you've got a big company dealing with a lot of customers, it's really important to have all that data on them. So you can say, right, that person's in that area. Let's kind of treat them slightly differently to this type of customer that doesn't necessarily know us too well just yet but you've kind of got that scoring across all your, all your, we have database and if it's done, it was massively amazing. But imagine if you're listening to this and you're thinking, wow, that sounds complicated. It could just literally be two, kind of like categories, warm and cold, for example. Or something along those lines to be like, right, that person is so much closer to buying something.

Speaker 2: (36:05)
Or I have already bought something and have indicated that they've gone to a sales page, which means that yeah, they're going to be slightly hotter than someone who hasn't yet gone further than just signed up for our blog, for example. Right. And so you can probably scale it in different ways. So you just know where to focus your attention, what email should go to what people and so it's not kind of like a real hard sales message goes to someone who's only just opted in to your email list versus someone who's been there for a while, opened up all your launch series of videos and there's like till I buy or not, that's the time when they need that. Really kind of like more of a sales message in the email.

Speaker 3: (36:40)
Well, I'd say as well. And just to kind of, just to be clear, I suppose to people that are listening to this is, there are so many micro commitments that people make when that, when that in a marketing system of yours, and really what you want to make it discern is what do you regard to be? You know, what do you regard to be those micro commitments that they're making, in your marketing process that discern your, you're discerning them based on if that cold, warm or hot if you were just keeping it really simple, what is it that they need to have done, or what are you going to do next to continue to scale them, to, to keep their retention, certainly, to, to, to increase, frequency of purchases to even make that first purchase or as we said from the beginning even to a reactivate people as well. It's all very, I think that like what's, what do you care about that is that, that's planning stage, right? So like before you go into it, you can obviously gather so much information, but it's discerning which information is most important for you to take in order to know what actions to take as well. Like, I know whenever we're building out campaigns, you have the media planning stage, which is like, where do we want to show up what's going to be the most valuable time to show up? And what websites or what type of search do we want to get in front of people based on, is that kind of a, is it their email list? Is it, like a lookalike or a similar audience to that email list? Is it because they're searching a keyword and therefore what video should we show them? Or what text or image ads should we show them?

Speaker 2: (38:32)
And once you kind of plan out a few kinds of mapped it and said, no, that's what we want to happen, then it moves to the actual like media buying stage, which is like, right, let's actually go and implement that plan as best as possible and then you can start tracking what's most important. Cause you're like, we need to generate a thousand sales of this product and we need to get each sale in for less than this price in order to turn a really good profit. And it's like, right, everyone's on the same page then. And also you're only going to then start really measuring the things that are most important to you so many times with any ad campaign, people are like, Oh my, my click through rate is like this and my impression to view rate is like this and my, and they kind of give me so much data and you just like, do you know what all you're really caring about the end of the day is that milestone.

Speaker 2: (39:16)
We talked about this in previous episodes, which is kind of like how many people got shot the website from watching that ad and how much that cost you to get in there. Then how many people converted and how many of you. And so if you've got those most days in places like right, everything else becomes a little less relevant. It doesn't really matter so much when you kind of go out real clear plan of what you want to happen. And I imagine it's exactly the same when it comes to lead scoring anything. It's like keeping it simple, looking at what's most essential to keep an eye on because otherwise you just get so much data and it just causes inaction most of the time. So, yeah, that will, that's very much from an advertising perspective, I presume it's the same thing from when it comes like post opt and, and making sure that we can contract people in the right way but also have that data in order to react I suppose in the right way as well.

Speaker 3: (40:01)
Yeah, no, definitely. So I think in, in, in summary, I think it's, it's a case of, you know, people listening to this sort of like, what do we, you know, we're kind of big on, people take an action to hopefully as a result of, of them listening to the episode. So, you know, I think in summary, I think it's getting clear on, when people take a step towards us, how do we, first of all, what are the steps that they're taking that indicate that they're taking a step towards us? What are those micro commitments? Maybe it's, I'm logging into the membership side for the first time. Maybe it's going back to your website. We can do like page view scripts. You know how many times I've gone to view a page, how long did they stay on the page?

Speaker 3: (40:51)
You know, what's the, the, the time between the first purchase and the second purchase did they click a link? Did they opt in on a form or have they opted into multiple forms? And if they've opted into three, then what do we need to do? There's so many ways of thinking about that. It's all very relevant to different people's businesses. I think it's really key key to understand that we, you need to be able to scale somebody's personal attention, in, in, in, in Doug's ways. And also think of ways to continue the conversation in that mind or enter the conversation that's going on in their mind at that time through different media and through remarketing for sure, but also involving maybe a mobile marketing as well and how you can make all that work for you. So I hope everybody found that super valuable and, well I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. No, great session. [inaudible] and yeah, we'll follow up in future episodes. Official. Jay's tell him thanks a lot. Cheers.

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